More Stack and Tilt Golf Swing Analysis

Jun

2007

More Stack & Tilt Analysis

Posted by Double Eagle in Ball Striking Tips, Stack and Tilt

Stack and Tilt seems to be the hot golf concept right now. Since my original two articles, I continue to get a lot of traffic looking for information about Stack and Tilt. I’d like to look at it a little closer.

I’m not going to give a tutorial on the technique. I can’t do better than the original article at Golf Digest. What’s more interesting to me is the reaction I’ve gotten from people in person as well as what I’ve been reading all over the web. Many people seem to have a misconception about what’s going on in the swing.

Some people have looked at the photo sequence of Aaron Baddeley in Golf Digest and have trouble seeing the real difference between the Stack and Tilt and the typical modern swing. Some people claim that Baddely isn’t actually doing anything different except taking a shorter back swing.

So what I wanted to do is grab a video of Tiger Woods and a video of a Stack and Tilter and compare them. The Stack and Tilt guy in this case is Will MacKenzie. I actually used two clips of Tiger Woods because neither of them had everything I wanted to show. The first clip shows his address, while I used the second clip to show the top of the back swing and the impact position.

Let’s have a look.

This first image shows both players side by side at address. MacKenzie is on the left, Tiger is on the right:

Stack and Tilt and Conventional: Address Position

There are several big differences here. First, you can see how Tiger’s spine angle tilts much more to the right. In both cases, the player’s spine angle extends through the ball. But look how much further back MacKenzie is playing the ball. Also, notice the pronounced tilt in Tiger’s hips. MacKenzie’s are almost level.

Here are the two at the top of the back swing:

Stack and Tilt and Conventional: Top Position

Again, there are fairly significant differences. MacKenzie’s back swing is somewhat shorter. Here’s where we see the “Stack” in the Stack and Tilt. The center point of MacKenzie’s shoulders and hips are still in a line. Compare that with Tiger who is really on his right side there. His shoulders are centered over his right hip.

Another important distinction: I’ve heard people ask where the “tilt” is in the Stack and Tilt. The spine angle is tilted ever so slightly toward the target. Now, I admit, that looking at this photo, it looks like his spine is straight up. But imagine it this way: pretend you’re standing right behind MacKenzie in that photo and used one finger to touch the small of his back and the other finger to touch the spot right between his shoulder blades. The tip of the finger touching the spot between his shoulder blades would be a little closer to the target than the other finger. Try it for yourself (disclaimer: you should probably warn strangers before laying hands on them at the driving range. Saying, “Hey, I was checking you for Stack and Tilt” is a lame pick-up line).

(Update: After watching the instructional DVDs, I have learned that the above analysis is, in fact, not where the “tilt” comes from in the name Stack and Tilt. The left-tilt of the spine is not in relation to the target, but is in relation to the rest of the body. This is part of what allows the shoulders to turn in a circle instead of shifting laterally. Plummer and Bennett do a great job of explaining this in the DVDs.)

Finally, let’s look at the impact positions.

Stack and Tilt and Conventional: Impact Position

There are some very pronounced differences here. For instance, look how far behind the ball Tiger’s head is. MacKenzie is still almost right on top of the ball. Also, you can see that MacKenzie’s hips are still virtually level, while Tiger’s hip tilt has actually increased. MacKenzie’s left side is already straight and Tiger is still getting there. This is due to the can-crushing move with the left leg (see the Golf Digest article). That’s what allows him to get those hips thrusting upward, allowing him to shallow out his swing path to keep from smothering the ball.

It looks like MacKenzie is going to make impact with a slightly descending blow, while Tiger is level or slightly ascending. I don’t know how typical this is for the Stack and Tilt, or if it was a mistake. That could cost MacKenzie a little distance.

There you have it. I hope that clears up some of the misconceptions about the Stack and Tilt versus the modern golf swing. Keep in mind that when you watch Tour pros play, they have such incredible grace and tempo that their swings can look very similar, especially when the finish positions might be fairly close. But when you look at the detail, the differences become much more clear.

——————————————–
Further Reading:

Effectiveness of the Stack and Tilt Swing (Life in the Rough)
Stack and Tilt Instructional DVD Set (Life in the Rough)
Golf Digest Revisits the Stack and Tilt (Life in the Rough)
Stack and Tilt: A Follow Up (Life in the Rough)
The Stack and Tilt? (Life in the Rough)
The New Tour Swing (Golf Digest, June 2007)
Stack and Tilt Part 2 (Golf Digest, September 2007)
Stack and Tilt Critics Speak Out (Golf Digest, September 2007)

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There are currently 250 responses to “More Stack & Tilt Analysis”

1
Stack & Tilt: A Follow-up » Life in the Rough said:

[...] Since this post was written, I have written another Stack and Tilt post where I do some analysis and compare it with the modern [...]

Posted on June 24th, 2007 at 8:34 pm
2
Tiger swing said:

Nice post. Havent seen your blog before but been doing some reading on the S&T lately and came across your post.

Another nice article on the swing that I found

http://www.articlegold.com/Article/Understanding-the–Stack-and-Tilt–Golf-Swing/5359

Anyways, bookmarked and will swing by when I have time.

Posted on June 27th, 2007 at 10:41 am
3
Double Eagle said:

Welcome Tiger! Glad you enjoyed the post.

I’ve actually read that article by Rick Hendershot. It’s a nice look at the Stack and Tilt. I like his point about the pelvic thrust. I emphasized that move when I tried the swing out for myself and I could really tell the difference when I got it right. I think my attention to that was one reason that I was able to pick it up fairly quickly. With a proper set up and attention to that move, much of the work is done.

Posted on June 27th, 2007 at 11:05 am
4
Jay Strauss said:

do you recommend this swing for seniors?–I’m a 14+, not all that flexible (never was), but in great shape otherwise–can I get lessons in the San Francisco Bay Area (Marin county is best)?

Posted on June 27th, 2007 at 3:27 pm
5
Double Eagle said:

Thanks for coming by, Jay!

Unfortunately, I don’t feel I have enough expertise to say whether this swing is a good fit for senior players. My goal is to become a pro, but I’m not there yet. I’d really hate to steer you wrong and possibly upset your golf game or physical well-being.

I do feel that the stack and tilt relies on a forceful upward thrust of the pelvis as well as speedy hip rotatation. If you feel that you can accomplish those things, then you have to decide whether it’s worth giving it a try.

That said, I think your idea about getting lessons is a good one. I can’t say I know any pros in the San Francisco area, but a good place to check would be any local golf courses or golf schools. Another good resource is the internet, of course. The PGA of America website can help you find a local pro. Check out http://www.pga.com/improve/index.cfm

It would be best to find someone that’s versed in the Stack and Tilt, but that might be tough since it seems to be in the early stages of popularity. Either way, a good pro will be able to understand what you want and help you to see what’s best for you.

Good luck to you. Stop back and let us know how you make out.

Mike

Posted on June 27th, 2007 at 5:51 pm
6
Ed Williams said:

Great article. I have been experimenting the last couple of weeks w/ the Stack and Tilt and I am hitting my irons the best that I ever have. I do need some help w/ my driver though, while everything else is better, I’m having a hard time getting off the tee.
Any advice for the driver ?

Thanks,
Ed

Posted on July 5th, 2007 at 9:23 am
7
Double Eagle said:

Ed, what kind of trouble are you having with the driver?

My experience with the Stack and Tilt is somewhat limited, but I could see a couple of spots that might give you trouble with the driver.

First, we have a natural tendency to really get behind the ball with the driver with the conventional swing. If you’re shifting to the right some and lose your “stack” that could cause problems. Have trust that the swing will work and stay stacked with the center points of your shoulders and hips over top of each other.

The second potential problem I could see is that you might top the ball if your swing path isn’t shallowing out enough, causing you to smother the ball. If that’s happening, you might want to make sure you’re really getting enough of that upward pelvis thrust by straightening your left leg quickly (like you’re crushing a can under your left foot). Also, be sure you’re getting enough rotational speed in your hips. So, crush that can, spin that left pocket around to the left, and feel that pelvis thrusting upward. (That all assumes you’re a right hander. Reverse for lefties)

Posted on July 5th, 2007 at 12:40 pm
8
Ed Williams said:

Thanks for the feedback.

I actually took a few swings on video today, and I believe its the hips.
Suprisingly, staying stacked comes easy for me, but my left hip is not getting out of the way, causing me to come over the top just a little. My bad tee balls are either high slices or pull hooks.

Does that make sense ?

Thanks,
Ed

Posted on July 6th, 2007 at 12:54 am
9
Double Eagle said:

Ed, I believe that makes sense.

With the Stack and Tilt, because the weight is more to the left (if you’re right handed), the tendency is to make a much more descending blow. That’s great for the irons, not so much for the driver. With the driver, the move with the hips and pelvis is much more critical.

If your left hip isn’t getting cleared enough, then there’s a good chance your arms and shoulders are outracing your torso, and causing you to get over the top, as you observed.

That, combined with the descending blow would cause a high slice, except when you manage to flip your club face closed, where you’ll get a pull hook.

Next time you’re on the range, really concentrate on the can-crushing move with your forward leg and also on turning that forward pocket away for good rotation. It’s probably just something that will just change slowly. Be patient and it will come.

Mike

Posted on July 6th, 2007 at 7:53 am
10
Causes of an Over the Top Swing » Life in the Rough said:

[...] is also known as the reverse pivot. This might be all right for the Stack and Tilt swing, but it’s a killer for the conventional swing. To keep from topping the ball, your weight has [...]

Posted on July 11th, 2007 at 8:30 am
11
Milo said:

I have been teaching a for several years. After reading about the Stack and Tilt, I deciding I would try to teach this swing to a couple of students. These students have always had trouble with transfering the weight from right to left. After one lesson, both lessons hit the ball more solid and more consistant. They both said that it felt so easy to make contact with the ball. For the first time they had confidence about hitting the ball every time. I recommend this to all who struggle with there own golf swing.

Thanks,

Milo

Posted on July 24th, 2007 at 3:27 pm
12
Jeff said:

I’m still a beginner and I decided to try the S&T because I wanted to have a single-plane swing style. To my surprise I had great success within minutes on the range. I was hitting the center of the face more frequently than before, and my trajectory had more zip. Plus I could swing (turn through) harder without getting out of sync. I am very comfortable using these techniques.

I want to know what setup adjustments I will need to make for imperfect lies i.e. downhill and ball-below-feet.

Also, does the S&T work for short pitches and bunker shots?

Posted on July 26th, 2007 at 11:51 am
13
Double Eagle said:

Welcome, Jeff!

You make an excellent point about being able to turn harder. I didn’t really put it together until you mentioned it, but I definitely agree that I could turn harder without getting out of sync. That could be why people are seeing increased distance.

I can’t say I’m sure about adjustments to the lie. My guess would be that the adjustments would be similar to those in the conventional swing. Maybe someone who had tried it from those lies can speak up and let us know.

Finally, regarding short pitches and bunker shots, I also haven’t tried the swing in those situations, but my feelings tell me that the stack and tilt is unnecessary in those situations. The stack and tilt helps with the weight transfer needed for the traditional swing that leads to inconsistency. That weight transfer is virtually non-existent in short game finesse shots. At least in the sense of turning over the right hip and getting weight onto the right side in the back swing.

For the short game, I recommend Dave Pelz’s Short Game Bible. He teaches a swing for the short game that’s very different from the full swing. I don’t buy into the fact that a pitch is just a small full swing, so I’m a big Pelz fan.

Posted on July 26th, 2007 at 12:27 pm
14
jack dabulis said:

I have practiced the
t&S method,and I agree that when your timing is correct the ball explodes off the clubface. Also, ball stays on line.

The major problem I experience with this method is shanking the ball. I think I am moving my head causing the club face to open up. I am curious if anyone else had the same problem.

If I can solve and figure out how to avoid this shanking problem, I would recommend this swing highly to anyone who lacks consistancy like I do. Jack Dabulis
If

Posted on July 28th, 2007 at 2:26 am
15
Double Eagle said:

Jack,

Shanking is rarely caused from an open club face. Though your head may be moving, likely your whole upper body is getting closer to the ball at impact. Your head just follows along.

I did a post about the shanks a while back with a few techniques to solve the problem. You can read it here:
http://www.lifeintherough.com/2007/05/21/the-shanks/

Good luck!

Posted on July 28th, 2007 at 10:09 am
16
Jeff said:

I have only been practicing the S&T for a week so I still have some mis-hits both fat and thin. I think this is because the old habits of the conventional swing creep in when I’m not fully focused.

I think there are a few things to remember. For one, there is still such a thing as over-swing meaning that if you swing to hard and get off balance, you are likely to top or shank the ball. Also, clearing out the hips too fast causes me to release the club early (casting) and hit it fat. Remember, your hips have to be fairly square and level half way down. You can’t just spin out and expect to flush it.

Finally, the thing that took a while to get is that in the S&T I am centered on the ball throughout the swing, so there is no need to shift toward the target on the downswing. It is very hard to break that habit but I have gotten better at turning through right where I am centered.

Double Eagle, I thought about what you said regarding the short pitches and bunker shots. I agree that pitches are not just small swings and I also agree that there is no need to transfer weight for these finesse shots. That’s exactly why I figured the S&T would be ideal. The Stack and Tilt is designed to control where the club strikes the ground by keeping your body centered back and through, taking the weight transfer and lateral shifting out of the equation.

So I tried using the techniques of the S&T in my short pitches and I have to say I was remarkably more consistant in striking the ball and in controlling my distances. I think you should give it a try before you decide one way or the other.

Jeff in S.A. TX

Posted on July 30th, 2007 at 1:24 pm
17
Double Eagle said:

Thanks for the update, Jeff!

Interesting thoughts and observations especially regarding the pitch shots. You make a good point about how pitches and the Stack and Tilt are related.

Do you feel like distance control is there with the pitches? I’m just thinking about my brief experimentation with the stack and tilt and the quick hip motion and can-crushing motion that make it work. I’m wondering if those kind of moves tend to add power when it’s not really desired as with short pitches. Or is it that those moves are still there but just happen at a slower speed?

Glad you gave it a try and reported back. If you don’t mind, I’d love to hear more updates as time goes on.

-Mike

Posted on July 30th, 2007 at 1:55 pm
18
Jeff said:

Mike,

You are exactly right… the stomping the can motion is not necessary. Let me try to explain how I make it work for me. Remember I’m still a beginner and definitely not a teacher.

I think I still set up fairly traditionally for my pitches. I open my stance and I also open the clubface in my left grip. I stack my hips and shoulders over the ball, but I set my knees toward my target and put most of my weight (maybe 70-30) on my front foot. So the way I see it, I have already crushed the can at address. Does that make any sense? I try to keep my weight forward with a stable lower body on the backswing.

The main things I use from the S&T in my pitches are a vertical (stacked) spine at address, the tilting left toward the target on the backswing and swinging my hands on a circular arc around my ribcage. I don’t try to generate any power on the swing, I just concentrate on making a smooth turn with my hips and shoulders while staying centered over the ball.

My confidence is soaring high right now because I feel like I can hit the center of the clubface every time, even on high flop shots. Same thing goes from the bunker, only I have to set my center behind the ball several inches. It’s like I’m rotating around the spot where I want the club to enter the sand.

That reminds me… I had trouble making the S&T work on my long irons, woods, and driver. I came up with a way to produce desirable results and a repeatable swing.

See, with the ball forward in the stance, it makes you want to shift left (for righties) on the downswing. You don’t want any shifting in the S&T, so it’s almost like you have to hang-back a bit to square the face. I try set the axis of my rotation around the center of my stance (maybe slightly forward of center) as opposed to rotating around the ball.

‘Til next time…

Jeff in S.A. TX

Posted on July 31st, 2007 at 9:21 am
19
Double Eagle said:

Great information, Jeff.

I see what you’re saying about feeling like you already crushed the can at address, but I’m not sure that’s what’s going on (maybe it is…you can tell me). In the full swing, the can crushing move helps to straighten the left leg, keeping the hips level and shallowing out the swing arc. It sounds more like you’re just setting up with your weight left, not so much with a straight left leg.

With much of your weight to the left, you’re ensuring a nice descending blow giving you crisp contact. Perhaps the can crushing move just isn’t necessary for delicate shots.

I also love your point about bunker shots. Many players have trouble trying to be consistent in the bunker because of weight transfer and a shafting point of entry in the sand. It seems like you took out all the guesswork and gave yourself excellent consistency.

Posted on July 31st, 2007 at 11:07 am
20
Jeff said:

Okay Mike,

I see what you’re getting at on the finesse shots. Actually, I do straighten the right leg going back while tilting, and then I straighten the left leg going down. Like I said I am not trying to generate power with this move, I’m just trying to make a smooth turn. It probably does help to shallow out the swing, but my reasoning for straightening the left leg while turning through is to compensate for my hip rotation. What I mean is that the right hip turns higher going back (right leg straightens, left leg flexes), and the left hip turns higher going through (left leg straightens, right leg flexes). This helps to keep my waist and shoulders turning on parallel planes, keeping the spine straight and stacked.

Posted on July 31st, 2007 at 1:07 pm
21
Double Eagle said:

I see what you’re saying, Jeff. Very interesting.

I’m learning so much from all the comments. Keep them coming!

Posted on July 31st, 2007 at 1:32 pm
22
Jeff said:

I just want to add a couple of thoughts…

First of all, I have some serious lower back problems. I have a bulging disk that bothers me from time to time and causes my lower back to spasm and tense up. Before I switched to the Stack & Tilt, I had major back pain from my spine compressing and stretching while twisting in my swing. The pain would last for days even after plenty of rest, stretching, heat therapy etc.

Now that I have been practicing the S&T, my back feels absolutely great. I practiced Sunday, Monday and Tuesday for more than 3 hrs each day taking mostly full swings trying to get used to the new techniques. Remarkably, I have no soreness or tension today. It is amazing. I have no doubt that the S&T would be ideal for anyone who has back problems. It keeps your spine straight throughout the entire swing and eliminates all compressing and stretching.

However, I would not recommend the Stack & Tilt for anyone with knee or hip problems. Since the spinal column stays straight, the knees and hips must do all the compressing and stretcing to compensate. There is significantly more stress on these joints, particularly the left knee.

Also, I have been able to hit my longer irons much better than ever before. I practiced with my 4 iron for about an hour yesterday, both off the tee and off the deck. I was hitting them high and straight with the occasional draw. For me that is remarkable.

I am completely sold on the Stack and Tilt and I feel like I have improved exponentially in the two weeks I have been practicing it. My only concern is that because the swing is so revolutionary and new, there isn’t a whole lot of info out there from golf pros regarding these techniques. So basically I’m on my own in trying to develop a consistent, repeatable swing.

Posted on August 1st, 2007 at 1:34 pm
23
Double Eagle said:

That’s fascinating information Jeff. I have a herniated disk as well, so this is something I’ve really been wondering.

I’ll be interested to hear if you’re able to maintain the Stack and Tilt as time goes on.

As you said, there’s just not much information out there about the swing so you’re kind of blazing the trail. Information like this from you and from others will help build knowledge about the swing that other players will take great value from.

-Mike

Posted on August 1st, 2007 at 5:17 pm
24
Tiger Swing said:

Thx Jeff, great info

Posted on August 2nd, 2007 at 1:10 am
25
Jeff said:

OPEN THE CLUBFACE

I think it’s important to take a neutral to weak grip when you practice this swing. A grip that is too strong will have terrible effects on the strike.

I believe that the extreme inside-out hand path promotes a draw, even with a weak grip. However, with a strong grip, the angular momentum of the club wants to slam the face shut during descent. This leads to smothered shots, low hooks, shanks off the toe and fat shots due to digging the toe.

It feels strange right now, but using a weaker grip is giving me fantastic results. My divots are level and square at the point of impact, I’m getting a really soft feel when I strike the ball, and the trajectory is unbelievable.

Jeff in S.A. TX

Posted on August 2nd, 2007 at 10:02 am
26
Double Eagle said:

Great tip, Jeff.

How are your scores looking since you took up the stack and tilt? From what I’m reading, you’ve solved a lot of the problems a new player takes a long time to solve. Ball striking that solid is a seriously good thing.

Posted on August 2nd, 2007 at 10:10 am
27
Jeff said:

Mike,

I have not been on the course since my swing changes. I wanted to give myself at least a month before I went into battle with my new weapon. I have been playing for about 20 months and my lowest score is 82 with an average of about 90.

Let me say that I had a very decent swing before I switched over. I did not suffer from many of the common swing faults that plague most newbies. I work very hard at my game, I understand the fundamental elements of a good swing, I learn quickly and I have good body control.

My main reason for switching was that I was uncomfortable keeping the club on-plane going back. Some days were good and other days I couldn’t get the club above my waist without feeling completely off plane. I wanted to develop a swing in which my arms and hands moved the same way around my body regardless of the club.

I’m sure the new swing will get me around the course better and have me playing from the short grass, but I don’t expect scores to change until my distance control and short game improve. I really need to spend more time on the putting green.

Jeff in S.A. TX

Posted on August 2nd, 2007 at 1:02 pm
28
Double Eagle said:

My suspicion is that once you get back onto the course, your distance control will be fine. The consistent ball striking that you’re seeing will ensure that.

Many times when players miss, it’s because of the quality of the strike. If you hitting center face most of the time, you’ll have distances down right away.

Having a good understanding of the wind is important too, but you probably already have that. It’ll just be a matter of feeling out how your new ball flight reacts, but you’re already doing that on the range.

You’re right about spending more time on the putting green. Having such a rapid positive transformation can make it tough to work on other parts of your game because it’s so much fun to hit full shots.

As Ben Hogan said in his book “Power Golf”, par for a course allows for 36 putts per round. That’s 50% of the total strokes. You can make up for a less than perfect iron or wedge shot with a good putt, but you can never make up for a bad putt.

Posted on August 2nd, 2007 at 1:21 pm
29
Jeff said:

I hope you’re right about my distance control. The only thing is, my distance has increased so I’m not even sure what yardages to expect. I have to recalibrate or something.

Also, it seems like the balls I use on the course go about 15-25 yards further than a range ball depending on the club. Does that sound reasonable?

I do understand how the wind affects the flight, but sometimes I forget to account for it. My inexperience causes me much more trouble than my skill level. I mean I feel like I have the tools to par or birdie every hole, but the details get me. Whether it’s the lie, wind or other conditions, I seem to overlook the fine points sometimes.

Posted on August 3rd, 2007 at 1:50 pm
30
Double Eagle said:

Don’t worry, Jeff. You’ll have to recalibrate, but it should be relatively quick. After your first several approaches you should have a feel for how your new distances compare to your old one. Then you’ll just make a conscious adjustment of clubbing down the right amount. Even if your first couple rounds are not great, it’ll be in a good way and you’ll adjust.

You’re right about range balls. It kind of varies, but it’s difficult to calibrate distances with them. Some ranges buy balls that are made to fly a little shorter. Sometimes it’s fairly close to premium balls, sometimes not. Also, they tend to get worn and the dimples don’t work as hard as they used to.

From what I understand, living in Texas, you’re getting a PhD in wind play. That’ll come over time. It might take a bit, but you’ll get a feel for the proper adjustments.

Also, you mention forgetting the finer points and details. It sounds to me like you’re in fine shape for a beginner, and that you do have the tools to score well. Consider doing some study into the mental game. It’s not that I think you have a problem in that area, but it seems like many beginning players let themselves over think a lot, and I wouldn’t want to see you start to get overwhelmed with the details. Cluttering your thoughts with swing details can kill a round.

I recommend “Golf is not a Game of Perfect”. I did a review of it in the last week or so if you’re interested. It has had a real effect on my own game.

Posted on August 3rd, 2007 at 5:16 pm
31
dana said:

You need a stronger grip!Not too strong, just 45 degrees with the left hand.

Posted on August 5th, 2007 at 4:32 am
32
Jeff said:

Hey Dana,

That’s great if it works for you. However, the original article in GD specifies a neutral grip for this swing. 45 degrees sounds excessive, so if you need such a strong grip to make the shot fly straight, then you are not executing the Stack and Tilt properly.

I only recommended a weaker grip because I know many amateurs use a strong grip to compensate for other swing faults such as coming over the top. I just wanted people to know where to look if they ran into particular problems like digging the club or pulling low hooks. Dana, maybe you already used a weak grip before so there is no big change necessary for you. However, there are many people who have used a strong grip all their life. Weakening the the grip will feel strange to these folks, but will be necessary to get positive results.

Double Eagle,

I didn’t think I was ready, but my brother dragged me out on the course this past weekend. All of your predictions were true. By the third hole I was taking one less club. I hit more greens than ever and gave myself plenty of birdie opportunities. And as you said, catching the center of the clubface makes all the difference in the world. Other than a couple of bad breaks and one bonehead error, I played the round of my life to date.

Yes, I absolutely agree that I should focus on the mental aspect of the game. I don’t think I have a problem there either, but a good mental approach will only make me better. I am not a golfer but rather a competitor who is learning to golf.

Jeff in S.A. TX

Posted on August 6th, 2007 at 9:06 am
33
Double Eagle said:

Glad to hear that, Jeff! Your description of yourself as a competitor who is learning to golf is interesting. I think we’re very similar.

There you have it, everyone. A stack and tilt success story.

FYI, Golf Digest ran another stack and tilt article in this month’s issue (September 2007; it just arrived at my door two days ago). There’s more information from Bennett and Plummer about the swing, including some criticisms from other instructors and rebuttals from them.

Posted on August 6th, 2007 at 10:17 am
34
dana said:

Stronger is better sorry Mike and Andy are friends of mine. Weak would work it just makes you use the clubface to square up more.

Posted on August 6th, 2007 at 10:58 am
35
Jeff said:

Good Dana,

Since you are all such chums, please ask Mike and Andy why Golf Digest said neutral grip when they really meant 45 degrees closed.

Posted on August 6th, 2007 at 2:32 pm
36
Double Eagle said:

Dana, the Golf Digest article does mention a neutral grip. I know there’s some controversy over the Baddeley photos (as to whether that’s what he actually does when swinging for real), but his grip seems pretty neutral to me there.

Is the stronger grip a customization that you’re teaching to solve a problem? Or is it just a preference that you have?

Posted on August 6th, 2007 at 3:05 pm
37
dana said:

A weaker grip would make many golfers hook the ball. However there are ways around it. The pictures in GD were not edited. But the feeling is very close. Look in the new GD at Mike’s grip that would be a good model to follow. The problem with most golfers when they swing is they don’t get to impact with enough lean of the shaft and pivot. Even with the Driver.If you look under the TGM book for the HIP Bump Hula ect.. you will find a axis tilt at impact do to the hips moving forward on the downswing.As long as there is no slow down of rotaion you will have an easy time getting Lean.

When a new player is working on a draw keep in mind the target line. Make sure that the ball starts right of it. Put a dowel or a Tee in front of the ball about six to ten feet out and see the ball going on the right side of it.(you will be aiming your body left of it)Remember golf is played in an ARC the ball wants to curve to some degree.

May the course be with you!

Posted on August 6th, 2007 at 3:29 pm
38
Mark in KY said:

I literally read the Golf Digest article, got out of the car and 20 balls on the button. Then went out and birdied the first hole I played. I think this swing is a dream iron swing, but takes some getting used to with the driver. You must do everything right with the driver, especially “crushing the can” and having your weight distributed correctly. Also, you have to keep your head “on the ball” with the driver. In some ways the S&T is inverse in difficulty to the tradional swing in that the long irons are easier to hit than a driver-for me anyway. Keep the driver tips coming, and a list of local teaching pros/schools would be helpful.

Posted on August 6th, 2007 at 7:36 pm
39
Double Eagle said:

Glad to hear about your success, Mark.

You bring up a great point about a list of schools. It would be good to keep a list of Stack and Tilt resources. The swing is still kind of new (in the sense that it’s getting out to the mainstream now), but I’ll see what I can track down and start putting a page together. If anyone knows of any stack and tilt schools or teachers, shoot me an e-mail.

Posted on August 6th, 2007 at 8:16 pm
40
Jeff said:

Dana, that’s a great point about the hip rotation and shaft angle at impact. Thanks!

I would also like to see more info about how to use this swing with the driver.

Jeff in S.A. TX

Posted on August 8th, 2007 at 11:38 am
41
Double Eagle said:

Jeff, check out my post from today. Golf Digest did a stack and tilt follow-up this month which included tips on hitting the driver.

Posted on August 8th, 2007 at 12:35 pm
42
Vic said:

I am a 10 handicapper and have a conventional swing, loading into the right side and struggle with pulls, hooks, and fat shots with the mid and short irons. It never made sense why I hit my driver and fairway woods and long irons consistently clean but tend to overcook the irons until now. For my “conventional swing” the shallower approach of the club is great for the driver and long shots, but tends to cause toe digs or closed club face, or a combination of both on shorter clubs. I tried the S&T with a small bucket and 7 and 5 irons and did not hit one fat shot. In fact to my amazement I actually pushed a few dead right. Amazing because I generally have to aim right to pull and draw an iron to the target. I am going to keep my long shot swing for the long shots and work on the S&T for short and mid irons. I really don’t see any problem using both swings. I always used a form of S&T with pitches, wedge approach shots anyway. It just never dawned on me to use it for 5,6,7 irons. With a few more practice buckets I am hoping to get down to single digit handicap yet this year.

Posted on August 9th, 2007 at 8:19 am
43
Double Eagle said:

Good luck, Vic. Let us know how you progress.

Posted on August 9th, 2007 at 9:13 am
44
Golf Digest Revisits the Stack and Tilt said:

[...] More Stack and Tilt Analysis (Life in the Rough) [...]

Posted on August 9th, 2007 at 11:17 pm
45
The Stack & Tilt? | Life in the Rough said:

[...] Further Reading: Golf Digest Revisits the Stack and Tilt (Life in the Rough) More Stack and Tilt Analysis (Life in the Rough) Stack and Tilt: A Follow Up (Life in the Rough) The New Tour Swing (Golf [...]

Posted on August 10th, 2007 at 1:10 pm
46
Barry Hibbs said:

I started Stack and tilt after a local unknown beat 4 champs, match play, in our District using stack and tilt for 6 weeks.
I researched same on Golf Digest. It seemed similiar to the swing jacket which I’ve use. Arms never leaving the chest just sliding left and right on the chest, with a lot of body turn. I always have taken the club too far inside and this swing promotes same. The main difference for me was the weight staying left and holding the stack thru-out.
Practiced twice 80 balls each time. Took to course and shot 2 -87′s. I’m a 16, used to be a 10-11 and am 66, fitness guy also.
One of the 87′s was with 4 doubles and 1 triple. Hit more good to excellent shots than I’ve done in a long time. I tended to hit them high but I was hitting low shots, fat shots andd smother shots before.
When I do it right the ball invariably goes straight. It takes the hands and most of the arms out of the shot. I used to be a armsy,wristy player.
To me this is a body swing and you better make a big forward turn or it will fail.
I’ve had instant success and am going to persist with the stack and tilt.

Posted on August 13th, 2007 at 12:25 am
47
dd said:

http://www.southlandgolfmagazine.com/t-av-new-tour-swing.aspx

Hope this helps

Posted on August 13th, 2007 at 1:12 am
48
Jeff said:

I played again on Friday, only 3 weeks after I switched to the Stack and Tilt, and I shot 80 on one of the toughest courses in town. I really should have gone lower, but I’m still working on hitting my driver straight. Things are coming along well… hitting fairways and greens, and playing better golf than I ever thought I was capable of. I beat all my friends by 20 strokes… they don’t know what hit ‘em.

My swing works great but is still a bit raw. I could be doing some things better like keeping the backswing short and compact, and getting more extension back and through. Maybe its time to refine things using videotape.

Jeff in S.A. TX

Posted on August 13th, 2007 at 2:16 pm
49
Double Eagle said:

I’m a huge fan of video analysis. Especially in this case where you’re trying to change your entire swing.

It’s great to hear that things are going so well!

Posted on August 13th, 2007 at 2:23 pm
50
Jeff said:

Thanks Dana for the info. I picked up another 10 yards by rotating my hips better. Please continue to share any techniques that are key for this swing.

Jeff in S.A. TX

Posted on August 15th, 2007 at 8:04 am
51
Steve Lake said:

I’ve tried the stack and tilt and I’ve been a single digit player for 40 years. I am finally hitting better irons shots for the first time in years!

Posted on August 19th, 2007 at 10:51 pm
52
Double Eagle said:

That’s great to hear Steve. One thing I’m noticing is that the stack and tilt isn’t just helping high handicappers. It’s helping players with single digit handicaps and, of course, even Tour pros.

Posted on August 19th, 2007 at 11:00 pm
53
Steve Lake said:

Hitting the irons a lot better but my driver is either a low hook or a push. How can I correct this?

Posted on August 19th, 2007 at 11:01 pm
54
Double Eagle said:

Steve, there were some tips for hitting the driver in the Golf Digest September 2007 follow-up. That link should take you to the start of the driver slides in the slide show. Check it out and see if anything rings any bells.

Posted on August 19th, 2007 at 11:22 pm
55
Barry Hibbs said:

August 27, 2007
Regressed slightly with the stack and tilt but regained the swing and had an 84 recently w/ 4 doubles. Still hanging in there. I hit more greens than I’ve hit in years during this round when I had the timing of the stack and tilt right.

Posted on August 28th, 2007 at 11:27 pm
56
Double Eagle said:

That’s good to hear, Barry. Do you have any thoughts as to why you might have regressed a bit? Is it a matter have having the timing down on a particular day or just a matter of needing some more practice time?

Either way, it’s great that you were able to recover and get back on track.

Posted on August 28th, 2007 at 11:33 pm
57
Jeff said:

I recently had some problems with this swing and it took me a couple of days to figure out what was wrong. It was simply a matter of keeping my hips centered over the ball on the backswing. I got off track while trying to polish up some of the fine details. I lost focus of what really makes this swing work, which is keeping the spine vertically aligned over the ball.

Posted on August 29th, 2007 at 12:59 pm
58
Barry Hibbs said:

I started hanging back and not turning fully to the left with my hips. Was hitting fat again. Also I think I was hunching over to much.
Cure: Seemed to be a little more upright stance allowed me to tilt more easily. Anchoring my feet to the ground and really using the complete turn with the body, left on the forward swing.
I have also found that if my swing thought is turning my right shoulder behind my head I don’t have to worry about the left knee and left shoulder moving towards the ball as the turning of the right shoulder behind the head automatically makes both go to the ball. It also makes the backswing go inside and the right leg straighten, if you keep your arms in contact with your chest. It also gives the tilt.
You may suggest this to other starters, (that is) after stacking and favoring your left side, think only of turning the right shoulder behind your head will give you all the other desired backswing techniques without having all those thoughts in your head.
This eliminated actually thinking of these other five moves.

When I have problems now ,it seems it is on the forward swing. Getting my arms down to the ball before I clear my hips. It’s a timing thing and when it’s timed right I make pure contact and the ball go high and straight.
When this stack and tilt is done right the ball invariable goes straighter than I have ever hit. I beleive this is because it’s a body swing and it takes my old wristy armsy swing out of play. The clubhead returns to address position which if aimed straight ,the ball goes straight.
My hdcp. is down to 14 from 16 and it’s going lower next cycle. Let’s hope this lasts.
Barry

Posted on August 30th, 2007 at 11:19 pm
59
pezzimiztix said:

the camera angles are totally different – you cannot accurately compare the two. the most important thing to remember with will’s swing is that his body action is a result of his severly open face – as a result his hand action through the ball is completely different than tiger’s. if your hand action is different your body action must compliment the face. no one’s head with a driver is on the ball or past the ball at impact. NO one – at least no one that can play worth a lick. i agree that the move has some benefit for someone who is severly inside to out. its just a feel though. and his entire theory on how the right elbow should be behind you coming down is ludacris. you explained it well… but you are still trying to sell the brooklyn bridge.

thanks for the analysis

Posted on September 9th, 2007 at 2:32 am
60
Double Eagle said:

Thanks for your thoughts, pezzimiztix.

I’m not sure I agree that the camera angle is substantially different. It may not be identical, but if anything it looks to be a hair forward in the Tiger shots and directly face-on in Mackenzie’s.

Also, I didn’t say that Mackenzie’s head was on top of or ahead of the ball, I said it was *almost* on top of the ball, but you’re right that it’s still behind.

It’s evident, though, in every shot how much further back in his stance he’s playing the ball. If anything, the camera perspective being slightly more toward the middle in Mackenzie’s shots, the ball should appear to be more forward.

With the ball further back, his head has to be closer to the ball at impact.

I don’t use the swing myself, so I’m definitely not trying to sell any bridges. I’m just trying to figure out what’s going on.

Posted on September 9th, 2007 at 10:12 am
61
Stan Halter said:

I began experimenting with S&T about five weeks ago after a horrible stretch where I just couldn’t get to my left side consistently. So far, it is the easiest swing change I have ever made. Using it in the bunkers is ideal too.

Biggest problem I have had is overdoing the weight shift to the left on the backswing occasionally. It is so new that I can get too much on the left too soon then hang back on the right some.

I still have some questions on ball position. But further back in my stance sems to work better….just not too much back!

Fairways and greens numbers are better. Scores starting to fall.

BTW…it does work on side hill lies. You just have to take your time swinging.

Just found your site…great work! The revolution starts here..today!

PS: I sprang for some expensive lessons with a Golf Mag top 100 pro last year…and only got worse. It is nice to improve for free!

Posted on October 2nd, 2007 at 9:15 pm
62
Double Eagle said:

Thanks, Stan!

I’m glad to hear you’re having success.

Keep at it and let us know how you progress.

Posted on October 2nd, 2007 at 9:27 pm
63
jeff bartlett said:

This swing has really worked for me. From scoring an average of 85 per round to an average of 77 in my last ten rounds.

Just need to sort out the putter and who knows maybe breaking 70 will follow.

Posted on November 10th, 2007 at 2:36 am
64
Double Eagle said:

I’d say an 8 stroke improvement is pretty good, Jeff.

Another success story!

Posted on November 10th, 2007 at 8:07 am
65
Adam said:

After struggling with my swing the last 2 months (13 handicap), I re-read your article prior to hitting the range. I hit all but about 4 balls of a large bucket very straight. The next day I went to my home course where I hit 10 of 15 fairways (only one poor drive and 4 very much in play). I also hit my irons so straight. The only reason I did not score well was I just could not chip and putt today, but what a relief to have full confidence on the tee box and with my irons. Except for 3 shots which I topped, I think I hit every ball perfectly straight.

The only 2 shots I struggled with was an up hill and down hill lie. I am not sure if I need to change anything, or just practice it a bit.

I feel like I now know how I will get to a single digit handicap….very soon too.

Posted on January 6th, 2008 at 9:18 pm
66
Double Eagle said:

That’s tremendous, Adam!

Ten fairways out of 15 is about 67%, which would put you in the mix on the PGA Tour in fairway %. Now, I know it’s just one round, but if you can keep that up, then you’re a lock for a single digit handicap *IF* you start paying attention to your short game.

I know it’s exciting right now and you’ll be tempted to keep banging away with the full swing. When you feel comfortable with it, really look at spending serious time working on short game and you’ll see huge improvement.

Confidence is a thing of beauty, isn’t it?

Posted on January 6th, 2008 at 9:25 pm
67
Ron Witherspoon said:

I have been using S/T since the end of the season in a dome (snow in Buffalo, NY!) with absolutely great results. I used to shy away from my irons as i always hit them with a level or ascending blow. Now i hit them so well I bought new irons and hitting 5 iron – pw with great consistency and trajectory. To my surprise I am really hitting my woods extremely well! I can feel and hear a “pinch” at impact which rockets the ball straight and high. Hybrids too from 2 iron to 6 iron are straight and true from the pinch. The driver needs some work as I feel i am using the stack part, and not as much tilt on staying on top of the ball. Its a new driver with a longer shaft then i have been hitting and i’m sure thats part of it. I am sold on S/T and cant wait to take it to the course and hit some GIRs with jmy new irons!! What a godsend!!

Posted on January 30th, 2008 at 11:44 am
68
Double Eagle said:

Good to hear that you’re having so much success Ron. I’m interested to hear what happens when you get out on the course in the spring.

Posted on January 30th, 2008 at 11:56 am
69
Patrick said:

Started fiddling with the S&T late last season but am now seriously working on it. A couple of observations. First, many have observed that it is a body rotational swing more than an arm and wrist swing. While I agree in that keeping one’s arms on your chest give the sensation of more of a body swing I find that it makes me “stuck” a bit. Especially with the driver I find that if I combine a good hard swing with the rotaion (have to time it)I hit some long, high and straight blasts. Second, the developers of the swing promote a rather severe lateral shift to the left on the downswing which helps “flatten” out the swing. Wouldn’t this indicate that S&T is not actually a one plane swing? What do you golf nuts think?

Posted on February 27th, 2008 at 12:38 am
70
Double Eagle said:

Patrick,

The Stack and Tilt can be a one plane swing, but it differs in many ways from Jim Hardy’s One-Plane Swing concept.

One similarity the two share is the idea of being “stacked”, referring to keeping the weight fairly centered throughout the swing.

But the Stack and Tilt doesn’t necessarily require the player to have the shoulders, left arm, and club in the same plane at the top of the back swing. Some players do, but some don’t. I believe someone pointed out in a comment recently (on another post) that Will MacKenzie doesn’t swing on a single plane.

Also, as you pointed out, the lateral shift with the Stack and Tilt is different than Hardy’s one plane swing.

So while the S&T is not the same as the Hardy swing, it can still be executed on one plane.

Posted on February 27th, 2008 at 1:54 pm
71
Pete said:

I have always been a decent golfer, but struggled with a slice most of the time and could never really trust my swing. I’m tall and had a problem getting my weight on my left side during the swing follow-thru. Anyway, read about the S&T swing in golf digest, also viewed some Utube swing sequences of Aaron Baddeley and thought I’d give it a try. I just practiced going thru the motions and swinging without any ball and feels like I’m taking a 3/4 swing.
For me the swing has worked out perfect. Now I’m getting thru the swing with my weight on my left side which gives my ball flight a lower and penetrating draw. In 2007 I was able to shoot my best score ever, a 60 and it seemed so effortless. It has improved my whole game and I would recommend this new S&T swing to anyone.

A comment on the WGC-Match Play Championship.
Aaron Baddeley matched Tiger Woods shot for shot and had upset in his grasp had he been able to sink a putt. I think Baddeley will keep getting better and be a real threat to Tiger, given more time to fully master this unique swing.

Posted on March 18th, 2008 at 10:43 pm
72
Patrick said:

Pete,

Just read your post and my question is, what were you shooting before that 60? If you were anywhere close to that type of number I’m surprised you would have tinkered with such a radical swing change like the S&T. Anyway, congratulations!!!

I am still at the neophyte stage of this swing. Just played my third round of the year and am feeling more confident with it. Two things I am noticing that seem to contradict many others’experience are my distance and ball flight. I am hitting it farther than ever (coming up on my 48th b-day) and higher than ever.This swing seems to allow me to manipulate the clubface more than ever which may explain both. One thing I do seem to have in common is my back doesn’t ache after a round like it used to. A work in progress.

Posted on March 18th, 2008 at 11:26 pm
73
Double Eagle said:

I continue to be amazed. Thanks for sharing the experiences, guys.

Posted on March 18th, 2008 at 11:31 pm
74
Pete said:

My scoring average up to the middle of 2007 was 75 before the S&T swing change. I just could never trust the old traditional swing and that was always was in the back of my mind.

This new ball flight for me is lower and longer with a slight draw. I’m swinging a standard length stiff shaft driver with an 8.5 face. I also have a 9.5 driver for a somewhat higher trajectory. My long irons are crisper with a more boring trajectory, short irons are tight. I’m telling you, this swing has changed my game around, I just can’t believe it happened so quickly.

I love watching Baddeley’s swing in slo-mo and how he pinches the ball.
Hey, I’ve only been at this for a year and believe there another 60 in me…somewhere?
Just remember to crush the can!

Posted on March 19th, 2008 at 12:36 am
75
Patrick said:

I can tell I’m new to this swing because I had already forgotten the crucial element of “crushing the can”. So thanks for the reminder. I took that thought to the range today and hit six iron after six iron about 190 yds(I’m at elevation)and I swear they all landed within five feet from each other with perfect trajectory. I love the balance and on top of the ball feeling.

I totally agree about Baddely’s move. It looks effortless, but not in a Couples or Els kind of way. He will win a major soon.

Posted on March 19th, 2008 at 10:41 pm
76
Pete said:

I will be watching to see how well the pro stack & tilters do this week at the Doral Tournament.

Here’s another swing thought to help master this swing. If your right handed keep your right elbow close to your side on the back & down swing. The right hand and shoulder start down together, caused by the crush the can move. Watch the rear view of Aaron Baddeleys swing on Utube bizhub from the start of the downswing. Centrifigal force takes over to complete the swing. That’s it, just a simple move.

To me Baddeley’s swing tempo seems quicker but more efficient with the shorter backswing, than Els or Couples. Also, I think your right, the S&T is much easier on the back.

Posted on March 20th, 2008 at 12:17 am
77
Ranger19 said:

Just started experimenting with the S & T and found your website invaluable.

My question revolves around the “crush the can” concept. The photos in the GD article show the ball of the foot crushing down on the can. Yet in the actual swing your left heel is off the ground. Am I missing something?

How about another image or thought for the transition to get the hips moving forward and to stand up straight at impact.

Thanks.

Posted on March 25th, 2008 at 11:52 am
78
Double Eagle said:

Hi Ranger. Glad you found the website useful.

Regarding the issue about crushing the can, if you’re right-handed, your left heel shouldn’t be off the ground once the downswing starts. I think it’s probably OK if it comes up a little bit in the back swing. Once the down swing starts, though, it should be planted flat on the ground.

The feeling I had when I was trying out the swing was that of stomping my foot in to the turf (not lifting it up and then stomping, but just as if I was trying to push my foot down into into the turf).

Have a look at the images of Aaron Baddeley from the original article here. You can see that as the downswing starts, his left knee is flexed, but his foot is flat on the ground. As the swing progresses, his left leg straightens quickly and his hips thrust upward and become level. In all three images there, you can see his left foot squarely on the turf.

An alternative mental image you can use is quickly straightening your left leg as you swing down through the ball (while making sure to thrust your pelvis upward).

I hope that helps. Feel free to stop back and let everyone know how you make out.

Posted on March 25th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
79
Patrick said:

I took the S&T to the University of New Mexico Championship Course yesterday (host of this years NCAA Women’s championship in May). They have it in unbelievably good shape and with a 20 m.p.h wind it had teeth. Since I seem to be so early on in my S&T development, I find early in rounds I have trouble trusting this new swing and consequently don’t execute it as described. But after about three holes I start doing it correctly and the results are so good that I only wish I’d known of it twenty years ago. The “rotational” feel of the swing is becoming ingrained and it appears to produce really good club-head speed. Currently my thougt is centered on the pelvic thrust aspect on the through swing. Another big test comes Saturday at Pa-Ko Ridge.

Posted on March 27th, 2008 at 11:47 pm
80
Pete said:

On the weight shift and crush the can move. In my swing it feels like the weight goes to the right heel on the back swing. On the forward swing the weight goes to the left heel. It’s a very simple swing, with no lifting of the foot until after the ball is hit.

Posted on March 29th, 2008 at 8:44 am
81
Ranger19 said:

Just returned from a four day trip to Florida where I was able to put the S & T into operational mode.

The results were far better than I had hoped for. I have always been a straight hitter off the tee. Not long but I hit about 70% of my fairways. My problem is that I hit only 40% of the greens. Through a lot of work with my short game I have been able to lower my hndcp to a 5.

My normal swing is laid off resulting in a lot of missed greens left or weak right. I am able to hit a lot of fairways because I use my hands to get the club square at impact.

The S & T has allowed me to finally hit my irons with authority. The first day out I hit over 55% of the greens and shot a 77.

Similar results the next two rounds. My driver and fairway woods remain about the same but clearly my iron play is where I needed improvement.

On my last day I ended up losing the swing a bit. Unless you are a pro, after four straight rounds the swing begins to fray at the edges. I began missing my irons left and then compensated by blocking them right.

When I got home I re-read your site and the Golf Digest articles and quickly realized that I was not straightening out my right leg and was thereby just whipping the club around waist thus leading to hooks or blocks.

Still working on the concept of “crushing the can” but your suggestion about straightening the left leg quickly makes sense.
My only problem is I feel that I am already on my left side so how would I push down on the can. Again, maybe you can help me through that process.

I have never been more encouraged about starting the golf season than I am now. I intend to really commit to the S & T for the next month to see if it can continue to improve my iron play.

Your site has been very helpful.

Posted on March 30th, 2008 at 10:56 pm
82
Double Eagle said:

Nice to see you making real progress, Ranger. I’m glad I’ve been able to help in a small way.

As far as the left leg and “can crushing” move, I think the following section of the Golf Digest article is key for you. I know you’ve read it multiple times, but it’s worth keeping in mind:

——-
“The turning body is supplying the initial acceleration, so the player must maximize rotational speed. The hips have limited turning capacity when they’re tilted, so they have to come out of their tilt to keep accelerating. The move that releases the hips is a springing up of the lower body, where the butt muscles push the hips upward and toward the target. The player has to feel as if he’s jumping up as the club comes down.

As you start down, imagine you’re crushing a soda can under your left foot. The body has stayed centered on the backswing, so there’s no need to shift back to the ball. This downward pressure on the left foot sets up the upward thrust of the hips through impact.”
——-

The part in bold is important. The left leg straightening (or “can crushing” move) is a function of that springing up movement. That’s another great bit of imagery that you can use. You’re not just pressing your foot into the turf for the sake of doing that, you’re doing that so you can engage your butt muscles and propel your hips upward.

Posted on March 30th, 2008 at 11:22 pm
83
David said:

Hi guys,

I was an early poster on your first post about S+T ( just after I had my first ever hole in one I think ) so just thought I’d let you know I still find it so easy to swing this way. Sunday I was only able to play 11 holes, very cold, course soaking wet after a downpour so absolutely not an inch of run even on full drives. Hit 8 greens of the first 9 in regulation ! Failed to hole a single birdie putt to the relief of my palying partners ( costs them 2 Euros per birdie ) but that’s another story. S+T still rocks !

Posted on April 7th, 2008 at 3:24 pm
84
Double Eagle said:

Thanks for giving us an update, David. It’s great to hear from more and more people who have tried the swing for some time and continue to have improved ball striking and consistency.

Now, you just need to get your putting in order to convert some of those birdie chances. At 2 Euro each, you’re going to be making some nice money from your partners.

Posted on April 7th, 2008 at 3:36 pm
85
Bob said:

I have been working at this and have a couple of problems. One is the misses generally go left, I believe this may be caused by not being able to shorten the swing enough. The other is this swing seems to bother my left knee on occassion. Any advice?
Thanks,
Bob

Posted on April 29th, 2008 at 6:50 pm
86
Double Eagle said:

Bob, I don’t have any definitive advice to give you, so hopefully some of the other readers will be able to offer some thoughts.

One thing that does come to mind with respect to the knee pain is perhaps a flexibility issue. How is your flexibility in your back and hips? Maybe some tightness is causing a little extra torque on your knee? If you think that might be the culprit, it may help to do some stretching to target those areas. In my sidebar, there are links to the Titleist Performance Institute, Mike Pedersen Golf, and Better Golf With Fitness, all great resources on golf fitness where you can find tons of stretches and exercises to target those areas.

Hopefully someone out there has experience with shots missing left that can offer you some advice. Though, if you do have flexibility issues, that could cause a lot of problems.

All this is speculation, of course, since I haven’t seen your swing. Feel free to go into more detail about your swing and flexibility if you’d like and maybe someone will have some ideas.

Posted on April 29th, 2008 at 7:25 pm
87
Joseph said:

Bob,
my left knee bothers me too when I find that it caves in towards the ball on the backswing. If you have the same issue, try flaring your front foot more towards the target at setup. This will fold your front leg and point your knee more on a downward angle rather than towards the ball.

If you notice the pics in the Golf Digest’s article, you will see P&B have a flared foot and the knee is not caved in on their backswing.

Just a thought…

Posted on May 3rd, 2008 at 11:09 am
88
Joseph said:

Bob,
One more thought…

Pulling left? For me, I pull left on occasion because my rear shoulder tends to cheat and moves a little forward at setup because I put more weight on the front.

Be sure you are “stacked” over the ball and shoulders squared at setup.

Aloha

Posted on May 3rd, 2008 at 11:40 am
89
Double Eagle said:

Great thoughts, Joseph. Thanks for sharing them.

Posted on May 3rd, 2008 at 12:20 pm
90
Joseph said:

Stack and Tilt has a new instructional DVD from P&B. Anyone have feedback on this? I am thinking of purchasing…

thanks

http://www.stackgolf.com/land01.php?sid=51985

Posted on May 25th, 2008 at 9:35 am
91
hanon said:

Here is a link with some good keys to hit the driver:
Click here.

Posted on June 5th, 2008 at 2:40 pm
92
Jim Marlow said:

I am a 66 year old 8 handicap golfer that changes swing thoughts as often as some people change their underwear. I am tired of that and think I have found what I need with the S&T.

Golf lesson videos through the years show that I have two big swing faults. I raise my head on the backswing and left my hips sway towards the target on the downswing. The S&T easily corrects the head coming up since I feel like my head lowers towards the my left foot on the backswing and the shifting of my left hip towards the target is part of the S&T.

I would like to get a little more distance off the tee with the S&T. (looks like it goes farther when you see it in the air). Maybe when I get my DVD’s that I ordered it will give me some ideas on getting the ball out there a little farther.

The only other problem I encounter on an ongoing basis is trying to hit a 3 wood off the grass. Too often it pops up to the right.

I have also noticed that one cannot get lazy or worn out as the round goes on because if you don’t get those hips thrusted properly and with energy you will leave the shot out to the right.

But overall; I like the fact that I can take this swing to the course and it holds up better under pressure. I think it is because I only need to think about proper body movements and my arms and hands are just along for the ride.

Posted on June 28th, 2008 at 6:27 pm
93
Double Eagle said:

Interesting thoughts, Jim. Thanks for sharing them.

You’re definitely right about getting worn out during a round. With the S&T, I can see it getting worse because of the necessity of a good pelvic thrust. Fatigue certainly hurts players with conventional swings, but I can see the problem with S&T. All the more reason for all of us to get in shape and stay that way!

After you get the S&T DVDs and have a chance to watch them, I’d be interested in hearing your thoughts. There’s a lot of interest in the swing and players would love to know about them.

Posted on June 28th, 2008 at 8:31 pm
94
Jim Marlow said:

Well I just received my DVD’s (4) today and have viewed 2 of the 4. I was initially disappointed that I couldn’t get them to run on my laptop. I don’t know if that is a problem with what I am doing or if they were made in a format that only my DVD player would play.

The video quality and production is not great but the quality of the instruction is very good. The first DVD covers the basics of the S&T and the fundamentals of a good golf swing. I thought the fundamentals part was going to be of value to beginning golfers but they have some interesting twists on what is really important.

The second DVD I viewed covers what causes slices, hooks, tops and fat shots and then how to make the ball curve the way you want it.

After viewing the the first two DVD’s I had to get out to the practice range and give some of what I heard and saw a try.
I am not a pro yet but I am seeing some serious improvement.

I will watch the last two DVD’s (The S&T in depth and the short game in the next couple of days. I will let you know how they work out. For $1 more a piece they sent a medicus 7 iron, 5 iron and driver. I am not sure how they fit in the S&T method but for $3 I couldn’t pass them up.

Posted on July 1st, 2008 at 1:23 am
95
MIKE said:

Great resource. I had never even heard of the stack and tilt until a guy at the golf course asked me how long I had been doing it. I’ve had a lot of swing instruction in conventional swing hooked up to wires and vests, trying to get all the angles to match up with the pros and after a few lessons I would play pretty good until the wheels came off and I wouldn’t be able to hit the ball at all. My “default” swing that I would switch to, was one where my only thought was to stay on my left leg. I tend to get overactive in the lower body and have to flip at the ball to even get the clubhead on the ball. This “dead leg” swing as I think of it ensures consistent contact.

I’m not sure that I am doing everything as advocated by the stack and tilt, but what a relief to find out that what I do naturally is not necessarily a give up swing, but might be a valid way to hit the ball.

Posted on July 1st, 2008 at 11:30 am
96
Double Eagle said:

Jim, glad to see you’re making serious improvement. I can’t wait to hear how the other DVDs are.

Mike, it’s very interesting to hear how you developed a natural stack and tilt. The human body is a wonderful thing. When given a repetitive task, it seems to find interesting ways to accomplish it efficiently. It’s as if you gave your body one parameter – the “dead left leg” and it figured out the rest intuitively over time.

Posted on July 1st, 2008 at 11:43 am
97
MIKE said:

I played a lot of baseball, and I find it interesting to see the baseball swing used as an example of why the stack and tilt is NOT a good swing by some commenters saying that you wouldn’t hit a baseball without a weight transfer. In fact, I was taught to hit to contact off the lead leg with the trail leg almost completely un-weighted when the the swing happens. I find the concept of stack and tilt to be very baseball swing like.

Posted on July 1st, 2008 at 2:40 pm
98
Double Eagle said:

Interesting comparison to baseball, Mike. I haven’t given it much thought, having not played baseball since little league, but I think I understand what you mean. There is definitely something to the rotational power that the stack and tilt and other swings of that type can provide.

Posted on July 1st, 2008 at 7:57 pm
99
Jim Marlow said:

I reviewed the last two DVD’s today and all I can say is “Whew”. I am on sensory overload right now. The “in depth” DVD is just that. It goes into what the hips, legs, arms, hands and shaft do in the S&T system.

I initially liked the S&T because it seemed simple for me to replicate. From reading the articles in Golf Digest I thought that as long as I got the body movements right the arms and hands just came along automatically for the ride. That is true to some extent for the basic movements and one could expect probably play ok with just that knowledge. But in my opinion if you wanted to get into the low single digits than the “in depth DVD” becomes important.

A couple of suprises on that DVD are as follows. No where do they talk about the downswing beginning by pushing down on the right heel and then thrusting up the pelvis. They discuss the importance of pushing the hips continually left (not suddenly) on the downswing and at the same time pushing the hands away from the right shoulder. One of my swing faults is letting my head fall back to the right on my downswing. They advised that is caused by not letting the hands move away from the right shoulder on the downswing as the hips move left. Which, I guess, is why I tend to push many of my shots to the right with the S&T.

I am disappointed that there wasn’t a section on drills to work on the individual components of the S&T. I thought I saw in their literature that it came on the DVD’s.

All in all, I am glad to know more about the S&T and should slowly get better as Iwork on the various components.

If anyone has any questions; I would be glad to answer them to the best of my ability.

Posted on July 1st, 2008 at 9:29 pm
100
Double Eagle said:

FYI to everyone – I received a press release from Medicus Golf about the widespread release of the Stack and Tilt DVD set. Apparently, it was in limited release before. I wrote a post about it here.

I expect to do a review on the DVD set myself in the near future. In the meantime, anyone who has seen it is welcome to comment as Jim did.

Posted on July 8th, 2008 at 6:28 pm
101
Robert Green said:

Hi,

I just stumbled upon this blog and ended up straight at this article. I’ve been wondering about the actual comparisons between the usual swing and the stack and tilt. As you say it is often very hard when watching the pro’s at work, as their is a very fine line between them. I must say, you have done a very good job comparing the two swings above, and I look forward to reading through the rest of your posts.

Rob

Posted on July 10th, 2008 at 6:44 am
102
hanon said:

Mike Bennett, one of the creators of this swing, directly relates the foundations of S&T. Enjoy it:

Click here.

This second video is dedicated to those saying that this swing doesn´t work without even trying it. The video looks perfect. Weight in the front foot and rotating the shoulders around the FIXED SPINE AXIS (keeping the same inclination). This is the key!!

Click here.

Posted on July 11th, 2008 at 7:34 pm
103
Double Eagle said:

hanon, that Mike Bennett video is tremendous. Good amount of information from him about the basics of the swing and what’s going on.

Thanks for sharing those.

Posted on July 11th, 2008 at 8:34 pm
104
hanon said:

I am cross-linking the three main forums about S&T, one of those is this one. They have more than 100 comments about S&T in each forum and they are still alive after one year with this swing. Therefore I think it could be useful to have all three links together:

Geoff Shackelford

The Sand Trap

Posted on July 17th, 2008 at 7:58 am
105
hanon said:

Can anyone explain me why I get better results with S&T if I use a more flat stance and plane (more rotational) -with the ball a bit further from me in the address- than if I use a more upright stance?.

With a flatter stance I get more solid contact and much distance. Thanks in advance

Posted on July 23rd, 2008 at 3:17 pm
106
chris said:

hanon, that is a very good question and an observation i have made also. my irons are 2* upright and always have been. the other day while using S&T it just seemed like my hosel kept digging in to the ground first. it only made sense to me that with the flatter swing and more rotational swing that i don’t need the extra upright swing. i got out the lie board and tape and sure enough i was contacting more off the hosel. i took the 2* out and made my irons standard lie. made a big difference.
i feel like it is like the golf digest picture and comparison to the football place kicker. one will kick the ball much farther with the rotational speed than linear speed. kicking from an angle as opposed to kicking straight on. same concept applies to the S&T swing. hope that makes sense…
if you can, check the lie on your irons…you might be surprised!

Posted on July 24th, 2008 at 7:18 am
107
David said:

S+T is a one plane rotary swing, during which the shoulders swing quite steeply but the arms are on a much flatter plane – if you’ve watched the dvd’s you will have seen that on the backswing the shaft bisects the right biceps muscle, so it’s well below the shoulder plane.

I have no idea what a flat stance is, but a flat swing plane is essential !

Posted on July 24th, 2008 at 4:40 pm
108
frank m said:

stack an tilt, ok I can see it on iron play hitting down but using the driver with your weight on the front foot how do you get the sweep motion with woods

Posted on July 27th, 2008 at 10:03 am
109
Jim Marlow said:

You need to shift the weight even more to the left at the start of the downswing and through the downswing. That raises the left hip. These movements shallow the club shaft through the downswing.

Posted on July 28th, 2008 at 8:45 pm
110
Steve Hofmann said:

Hello everybody, I have been studying this swing over the last few days. I have tryouts for my high school golf team coming up, and for some reason, after the district tournament last year, I have not been able to get the same consistency I’ve had before. This swing seems to really help with that, and it’s been getting great reviews both here and on other sites I’ve visited. Is this swing really that effective and easy to do consistently. The way I think of it is:

1. Keep everything centered over the ball, weight slightly more on the front food.

2. During takeaway, keep front arm along ribcage and tilt the spine towards the target.

3. As you start the downswing, make a motion like you are crushing a can under your right (for me anyway, I’m a lefty) foot and slide your hips forward.

Is there anything I’m really missing? Also, what are a few things I really NEED to do to hit my driver well with this swing? I’ve heard many different things and just want to know what the best are.

Thank you very much for any help,

Steve

Posted on July 30th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
111
Double Eagle said:

Steve, I’m about half way through the DVD set and I wanted to point out something. Keep in mind that I tried the swing, but didn’t continue with it (not because I don’t think it’s a good swing – it’s as good as any other and the results people are seeing speak for themselves).

Regarding the takeaway, the spine tilts left, but not really in relation to the target (as I originally thought too). You must remain “stacked” over the ball, and it wouldn’t be possible if you tilted toward the target. However, you will tilt left in relation to your own turning hips and shoulders.

Looking from face on, your centers will be stacked over the ball still, but looking from behind, down the target line, you’re tilted kind of like you were at address, but since your shoulders have turned almost 90 degrees and the hips have turned to some lesser degree, you’re actually tilted to your own left.

But from face on, your shoulder center is over your hip center which is over the ball.

Posted on July 30th, 2008 at 3:46 pm
112
Jim Marlow said:

Steve, I have reviewed the DVD’s many times and failed to find any mention in the “crushing the can feeling with the front leg” to start the downswing. I know it was mentioned in Golf Digest article but maybe they didn’t think that was a good visual after all. They do however the importance of shifting the weight to the lead leg throughout the downswing (not a sudden thrust). That concept has really helped me.
Good luck

Posted on August 2nd, 2008 at 12:03 pm
113
Double Eagle said:

Jim, I’m through the first two DVDs and you’re right – they definitely don’t refer to the can-crushing move by name. My guess is, it tends to cause a little confusion to players that might not understand the purpose of the analogy. However, watching the first two discs, I think they do a great job of telling us what we need to do to perform the swing successfully.

I think in the context of a relatively short Golf Digest feature, the can-crushing move was a nice bit of imagery. But in the context of a much more in-depth DVD series, it’s not as necessary because the things it accomplishes are covered in great detail.

Posted on August 2nd, 2008 at 3:50 pm
114
Patrick said:

Dear Double Eagle, I have a front left leg 1″ shorter than my back right leg. I have an artificial left hip with a metal rod in place. I have every significant golfing book written in the last 40 years and have taken golftec lessons since last April. My scores have bounced from 103 to 86 to 91 to 103 again last weekend. My hcp is 22 from the back tees at my home course. My golftec guy is very knowledgeable and decent, BuT, I went out yesterday and hit five buckets of balls after reading your website and watching youtube videos all weekend. Normally, my lower back has to be stretched out before and after every round though I am in good shape for a 50 year old.

It took me two small buckets (20 balls) to allow my reverse pivot to feel comfortable, yesterday and another 20 balls to find my driver points. I can draw the driver at will and the new trajectory is penetrating with a big forward kick off my 9.5 degree Adams REDLINE driver with a senior shaft. I can also hit a straight drive. My irons, when I ” crush the can” start out in a low acceleration and shoot up nicely with good distance.

The good news is that I had no pain, today, and my worse shot, yesterday was the odd slice, which I could not ever do before. I felt the shafts of my iron flex consistently (reg flex HT’s), and actually felt the buttery compression of our driving range balls about 25% of the time which is a new record for me.

If the rain holds off I will play tomorrow and keep you posted.

Posted on August 5th, 2008 at 6:22 pm
115
Double Eagle said:

Wow, Patrick, that’s great. I can’t wait to hear how you make out on the course.

-Mike

Posted on August 6th, 2008 at 11:54 am
116
Jim said:

Well,the magic of the stack and tilt is still there for me. I keep waiting for reality to set in (like it has after a short while with every other system I have tried). It seems almost too simple and good to be true. (Just take the club very much inside as I tilt left and down with my left shoulder and then just shift my weight left thru the downswing. Thank good I haven’t had to worry about the making sure I was using the flying wedge or accumulators yet.

Posted on August 6th, 2008 at 8:03 pm
117
hanon said:

Summary of basic S&T foundations told directly by Mike Bennett in a video interview:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4_YepJ3wSs

Posted on August 7th, 2008 at 2:25 pm
118
Greg W said:

Recent convert to the S&T. I gave up golf over 6 years ago and just recently picked the game back up, and boy I have come back with both barrels a blazing. After see a infomerical on the Golf Channel and checking out a few websites (your’s mainly) about this new swing method, I decided to give it a try. The results have been nothing but amazing. I had a naturally inside swing path so this method really wasn’t a big change for me. The biggest change is when I went to GolfTec and they said I was totally screwed and show me all these pro swings (didn’t really say screwed), which of course I didn’t swing like. When asked what I play too and indicated I play to a 4.6 index, the look was priceless. The S&T has enabled me to (in just a 1/2 season and very little practice (PW in the school yard), to stroke the golf ball better than anytime in the past 20+ years. Solid, straight, and long is the norm. Will be off playing Antler Creek (8000+ yards) this weekend. Will see how the swing holds up. I get an extra stroke, so….;)

Greg

Posted on August 8th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
119
Double Eagle said:

That’s great, Greg. I would have loved to see the looks on their faces at GolfTec. I’m guessing the Stack and Tilt isn’t getting around into all the teaching circles yet, but as I like to say – the proof is in the pudding.

Posted on August 8th, 2008 at 9:33 pm
120
Greg W said:

Played Antler Creek on Saturday with our gaggle. Fun times. The golf was what we had expected, expect we didn’t get to play from tips. AC was conducting their club championship and set it up to play from the “golds” or about 7600-7700 yards long and windy. We all agreed the course was challenging with long carries at times, but quirky when you have to lay up on a 670 yard par 5. Anything above the hole was almost a 3-putt for certain. I found this out 4 times. My results were 82 with four 3-putts. Hit the ball very well off the tee box using the S&T. Only in the native grass just 2 times all day and found the pellet each time. The S&T is a solid swing and even guys I play with bo-who at times, but the my results are in the pudding. BTW, one of the nay sayers in the group and plays to a “4″ recorded a 12 on Saturday by playing in the bunkers/hazards. Priceless…

Greg

Posted on August 11th, 2008 at 10:39 am
121
TOM KRAEFT said:

JUST GETTING INTO S&T. ALL YOUR COMMENTS ARE HELPING A LOT. 61 YEARS OLD, AND AVID. LOTS OF LESSONS, WITH NO RESULTS THAT HAVE HELD UP.

SOUNDS FAIRLY EASY TO DO. HAVE NEVER BEEN GOOD AT WEIGHT TRANSFER, SO HAVING NOT TO WILL BE WELCOME. PLAYING WITH WIFE AND FRIENDS TOMORROW, SO WILL GIVE IT AN EARLY TRIAL.

AGAIN, THANKS FOR ALL THE INTERESTING COMMENTS. I’M SURE I WILL HAVE QUESTIONS.

TOM TOM

Posted on August 16th, 2008 at 3:33 pm
122
larry said:

I am a lefty an tried s&t but I hit some shots fat an stop hooked alot other shots. I didnt do very well.

Posted on August 17th, 2008 at 4:37 pm
123
Kevin said:

When I saw the stack and tilt advertisement on the golf channel I thought immediately Hey! that guy stole my idea! I’m a self-taught swinger; I’ve had lessons but found what they told me to be too hard to execute consistently since I don’t play enough. I basically suck. I’ve never been able to hit my woods well and I used to tear up the grass before the ball on my iron shots, and/or shank them into the woods. I figured out for myself that keeping my weight centered over the ball and rotating my shoulders with a tilt like they described gave me solid contact almost every time with no loss of distance, but no perceptible gain either. What I have gained is a nice subtle draw and almost pro-like spin. I suddenly started seeing even 8-iron and 7-iron shots stop or roll backward on the green. I haven’t sliced or shanked a shot in many rounds of golf and have quickly dropped from the 100′s to the 90′s, even to the 80′s on easier courses. The downside is that it has lead to equally devastating hooks with my woods and longer irons if I don’t get it right. I don’t yet know the cause of this mishap, but when I correct it I really feel I will finally have a consistent game. If you’ve got a great swing already, it probably isn’t worth the effort, but if you sound like me, I highly recommend it.

Posted on August 17th, 2008 at 5:35 pm
124
Double Eagle said:

Greg W – Awesome! Knock out those 3-putts and you’re in business.

TOM KRAEFT – I can’t wait to hear how you do.

Larry – Sorry to hear that. Have you tried the instructional DVDs? I know they’re a bit pricey, but they may give you some answers as to anything you may be missing. Based on the consistently good results, my guess is there’s just something you need find and address. Success with the S&T seems to span all ages and handicap levels.

Kevin – That’s great. Someone else commented that they had developed a S&T on their own before the swing was known. It’s fascinating how different people intuitively find different ways to accomplish the same task without any outside influence and sometimes it’s something that really works well. I wonder if the answer to your problem with the woods is finding a way to get in some more practice. I know it’s tough with life’s commitments, but maybe it’s something that will click with a little work. Either way, you’ve made some great strides already. Good luck figuring out the last piece.

Posted on August 17th, 2008 at 8:34 pm
125
Jim said:

What always works for me when I start to pull or hook is to make sure I move my hips left through the entire downswing even though at the top of the downswing you feel like you are already left.

Posted on August 18th, 2008 at 12:50 pm
126
Double Eagle said:

That’s something interesting that I learned from the DVDs, Jim. They indicated that the swing is a continual move left. It starts on the backswing and continues on the downswing and into the follow through. That was an interesting way of putting it that I hadn’t really realized before. You start left and keep moving left.

Posted on August 18th, 2008 at 1:03 pm
127
hanon said:

I read Tommy Armour´s great book “How To Play Your Best Golf All The Time” and I didn´t even remember it, but it is as MichaelM have stated in thesandtrap.com forum. Thanks for remembering it. Armour suggests to set your weight up favoring your left foot rather than the right foot. I cite some paragraphs:

” To hit a good iron shot, your club must contact the ball before the sole of the club gets to the bottom of its arc. This get backspin on the ball, eliminates hitting behind the ball, and gets the hands ahead of the ball as the shot is hit. Having the weight borne more on the left foot than on the right as you´re coming into the ball is the way of getting the correct downward path for the iron.”

“Impact on the long iron shot: Weight is still on the left foot (as it was in address and throughout the swing).”

“Hitting the ball a long way … depends on the effective use of the hands, rather than on trying to throw the weight of the body into the shot”

…..”your body is on a steadily fixed upright axis.”

Another classic instructor using no weight shift during the swing!!! Check also Count Yogi and Mindy Blake´s swing.

Even in the book “One Move to Better Golf” Carl Lohren states that one of the foundations of the swing is to rotate the shoulders around a fixed spine axis. There are some differences with the S&T but some foundations are exactly the same. Maybe between Armour and S&T the bigger difference is that Armour use a two-plane swing (more handful no so much rotational as S&T) and the bigger difference between Lohren and S&T is that he uses some weight shift to the right. But the ideas about weight in the left (Armour) and fixed spine (Lohren) are much more like in S&T.

Posted on August 21st, 2008 at 2:35 pm
128
Ed said:

“Start left, and continue moving left”… “head centered over ball”. Those are the two things that I think of with Stack and Tilt, and for me, they virtually eliminate the issues I have with sway.

My only issues with Stack and Tilt come from two things… if I hurry a shot or if I try to “help” the ball up — and I can’t blame the swing for that! It’s just taking me a bit to reprogram myself.

Stack and Tilt just does not work for me for the Driver, but I do a modified version with just a slight shift of weight left that has worked just fine — more of a wider sweep back than a steeper arc.

As far as my overall game, I’m playing way more consistent since adopting Stack and Tilt. In video, I can see that my swing is far more stable than it ever was before. I may not be doing a “textbook” Stack and Tilt, but the parts that I use work for me!

Posted on August 23rd, 2008 at 5:32 pm
129
Tom Kay said:

When hitting your driver (right) does your right wrist remain somewhat cocked all through the swing?

Posted on September 7th, 2008 at 12:32 pm
130
Lars said:

I am running a fan page about Phil Mickelson and even though Phil is certainly not using the Stack and Tilt I have published an article about the new swing on my site:

http://www.phil-mickelson.com/2008/stack-and-tilt-the-ultimate-cure-for-our-swing-problems/

I am looking forward to getting a lot of comments. I am really curious to find out what people do think about the Stack and Tilt.

Posted on September 14th, 2008 at 4:54 pm
131
Chris said:

I have been trying stack and tilt for a week now. When I videotaped my swing, I noticed that my upper body rotates quickly while leaving my arms behind. I believe my ball striking would increase that much more if I could correct this. Is there a remedy? Thanks.

Posted on September 15th, 2008 at 11:48 pm
132
Double Eagle said:

Hopefully someone has an answer for you Chris, but the instructional DVDs will probably have the answers you need. I plan on finishing watching them this week (finally) so if I see anything in there that sounds like it will address your issue, I’ll comment here.

Posted on September 16th, 2008 at 12:05 am
133
hanon said:
Chris,

Your arms should be \”joined\” to your chest at the top. This way if your body rotates your arm must follow it, you don´t need any arm manipulation. In the videos they tell a couple of good CHECKPOINTS:

1- The club path must be 20º inside respect to the line of flight; both in the backswing and also in the downswing, and 20º close to the line in the follow thru.
```
<------------_------------
    20º   _-  -_   20º
        _-      -_
```
2- In the backswing, when your left arm is parallel to the ground the club must be crossing the middle of your biceps. This is the same as saying that the club plane must be very flat and inside and the club positioned in a flat inclination. Don´t put the club never in a steep position ( I had this problems but I am correcting it now and the transitions is easier with the club very flat at the top)

3- To hit a draw you must hit the ball still coming from the inside , before reaching the point of tangency in the club path. For this, your weight at impact must be forward respect to the ball position.
Posted on September 16th, 2008 at 6:12 pm
134
Double Eagle said:

Hanon, your little diagram came out all messed up so I edited your post to put <pre> tags around it. If it still doesn’t look right, let me know and I’ll fix it.

Posted on September 16th, 2008 at 8:26 pm
135
hanon said:

I have seen many information about how to execute the swing. Now I want to summarize which are the FUNDAMENTAL that Plummer and Bennett describe for the S&T in the first DVD. According to their explanation, the three fundamentals of every good player are not the grip, stance, alignment, ball position… Every good player has a different one and all of them can play perfectly. The THREE FUNDAMENTALS for a good swing are:

1 – Hit the ground in the same spot every time
2 – Hit the ball with enough power
3 – Control the curvature of the ball

1// HIT THE GROUND IN THE SAME SPOT (ahead of the ball)

Tip 1 –> Keep the weight forward.

Tip 2 –> Use the Flying Wedge (the angle of the right hand and forearm) to control the circumference of the swing. This is the same as keeping the hands ahead of the club at address and the same at impact position.

2// HIT THE BALL WITH ENOUGH POWER

Tip 1 –> Hands path: move the arms inward (20º inside).

Tip 2 –> Increase wrist angle in the backswing to add power.

Tip 3 –> Turn your shoulder in a circle and keep the head still.

3// CONTROLLING THE CURVATURE OF THE BALL

Tip 1 –> The curvature depends on where the weight is in relation to the ball position. There is a clear difference if the club hits the ball before or after the point of tangency of the circle:

a) Weight forward: the club hits the ball from the inside before reaching the point of tangency –> Draw or Push.

b) Weigh backward: the club hits the ball on the forward side of the circle cutting across the ball –> Slice or Pull.

Tip 2 –> The ball´s curve is controlled by the angle of the face in relation with the path of the club.

———————————————————–
I want to add a video where they tell some of these ideas:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4_YepJ3wSs

I have been surprised after viewing the DVD because in no place there was told anything about keeping the flying wedge all over the swing. Even, they think is one of the 2 most important pieces of this swing!! and it was not commented in the GD articles neither in any internet site ¿¿??

Posted on September 18th, 2008 at 4:28 pm
136
Double Eagle said:

Hanon, I don’t recall seeing anything about the flying wedge until the DVDs either. I’m not sure why it hasn’t been mentioned anywhere else. Of course, I can tell you it wasn’t mentioned here at the time because I didn’t know about it. After watching the DVDs, they cover it some and it makes sense. I may do a new post covering that.

Posted on September 18th, 2008 at 4:34 pm
137
hanon said:

I have found this site with a good summary of the DVDs and explanation of keeping the “flying wedge” all over the swing:

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=175425&st=0&p=1156714&#entry1156714

Basically what they explain is that keeping the flying wedge -or keeping the hands ahead of the club till impact- ( not breaking the right wrist angle with the forearm ) avoid casting the club and this way the radius of the swing is maintained constant from address to impact . This a fundamental piece to hit the ground in the same spot every time.

If you don´t keep the flying wedge your radius increases as consequence of casting the club; and you will hit the ground before the ball.

Posted on September 18th, 2008 at 6:26 pm
138
hanon said:

Another classic golf champion, maybe the greatest, against the weight shift. Extract from “Bobby Jones on golf”, Chapter 3 :
“Shifting the Weight:
It is my define opinion that there need be no shifting of weight from the left foot to right during the backstroke. I have examined numbers of photographs of the very best players and I have been able to find no case in which such a shifting was perceptible; but there should occur during the hitting stroke a pronounced shift from right to left…”

Posted on October 12th, 2008 at 12:09 pm
139
Double Eagle said:

Great point, Hanon. Here’s a slow-motion video of Bobby Jones’ swing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5XeiFcLyGw

Tell me that doesn’t look a little Stack and Tiltish.

Posted on October 12th, 2008 at 9:33 pm
140
hanon said:

Absolutely. It´s a kind of mix between S&T and Swing the Clubhead. Here it is another view of Bobby Jones´ swing:
http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=iDmZVQk3Z9M

My opinion is that the weight shfting theory started in the moment that golfers began to stop lifting the left heel during the backswing. For that resason all great classic Masters ( Bobby Jones, Tommy Armour, Ernest Jones) have never advocate a weight shift to the right leg because for them it´s was quite easy to get stacked if they rise the left heel (see the videos again).After that this idea of maintaining the left foot in the ground became popular, the easy way to swing the club was by moving the weight back and forth.

Now with S&T we have a method to avoid shifting the weight at the same time that we don´t rise the left heel.

PS: For Bobby Jones the first movement – the key movement- in the downswing was to “unwind the left hip”. I think his move is a kind a a lateral move (like in S&T) followed by a rotation

Posted on October 13th, 2008 at 2:46 am
141
hanon said:

For newbies, these are the essentials that Mike and Andy describe for the S&T in the first DVD.

Their basic thoughts are:

- WEIGHT FORWARD (setup 55/45 favoring the left then progresses as you swing back ( at the top 60/40) until 95/5 left in the follow-thru; never gets more weight on right than left)

- HANDS IN (meaning they move 20º IN on the backswing as opposed to down the line–note they also move back and up) and keeping the “flying wedge” during all the whole swing.

- SHOULDER DOWN (the left shoulder moves DOWN on the backswing as opposed to AROUND–think steep shoulders). Tilt the left shoulder while both shoulders rotate in a circle.

- HIPS FORWARD on the finish (the hips move steadily forward during the swing–very much a lateral slide forward)

They say you may change the rest of little details but you never have to change these foundations of the swing. Hope this help

Posted on October 27th, 2008 at 2:18 pm
142
hanon said:

Two comments that will bring better results with the S&T swing:

1- During the backswing is necessary that the butt of the club point to the ball (target line). This is an easy checkpoint to follow. This will guarantee that you will keep the same swing plane. At the top the left wrist must be completely FLAT (no wrist break).

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=73c4c844d41c4e82d2db6fb9a8902bda

You can check it in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvuuzcNNh60

2- At set-up the weight is recommended to be towards the balls of the feet. Not in the heels. This is explained in the first DVD. I think this detail makes easier to rotate the body. If the weight is in the heels the rotation is not so fluid. I just recall this idea because I think it is quite important but not very well known between S&Ters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLGNu0YbGkQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgbubywoLCw

Posted on November 10th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
143
Tour Golf Blog said:

I know this is old, but I experimented with the S&T and just never got used to it. I agree with a lot of points in the article, but I personally am sticking with a more traditional swing.

Posted on November 21st, 2008 at 6:08 pm
144
Alex said:

Hey Guys,
Just wanted to give a little input on the s&t swing. Hanon, your illustration is near perfect, and allows one to see just what you have to do to start the backswing w/the upper arms staying connected with the chest.
The easiest way I have been able to convey this to my students is to focus on getting your hands(on the take-away) over your right foot. When this is occurs, the s&t automatically will start without a great deal of effort. I have used this simple technicque with great success, over the years and still try to improve on the way its conveyed so one is able to understand it in the most simplest form.
Your input/suggestions are welcome. I am a firm believer that an “old dog” can learn “new tricks”.

As for ball position on uneven lies…Very simple,take your position near the ball, take a practice swing, see where your divot begins relative to you stance, set up over the ball in the same manner, and swing. Your divot doesn”t lie. Quite frankly this works better w/ the s&t, because you have eliminated most of the lateral moves required in the conventional swing.
Look forward to hearing your input.
Alex

Posted on November 26th, 2008 at 2:24 pm
145
hanon said:

Hips action during the S&T swing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AoF5jmfTAM

Look how he slide the hips in the downswing and keeps the flying wedge during the whole swing till the end

Hands in, Shoulder down, Right leg straightening :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ml0g-4atq8

Posted on November 26th, 2008 at 6:30 pm
146
TimothyW said:

Two days ago I viewed a video of Ben on YouTube; Ben was talking about how to start the downswing. He stated that the down swing must be initiated with the lower body and the arms will follow around with the shoulder turn. This was an epiphany moment when I was practicing the Stack and Tilt downswing concerning the hip slide towards the target. I now see what Mr. Hogan was talking about in relation to the hips being turned on a tilted angle on the S&T backswing. Mr. Hogan, being a one plane swinger, extended his right leg on his backswing, which like in the S&T swing, put his hips on a tilted angle and subsequently pointing his left shoulder down….Being in that position on the back swing, it’s critical to start the down swing with the lower body since the shoulders are at a steep angle.

When the downswing is started with the lower body, it allows the shoulder angle to be shallow at impact and the hands to follow an inside path as opposed to starting the downswing with shoulders in which the hands will put the club head outside and off plane resulting in slices and blocks. Mr. Hogan explains in the video that by starting the downswing with the shoulders “most people hit the outside of the ball instead of the back of it.” By starting the downswing with the lower body, and allowing the “hands and arms to follow,” as Mr. Hogan states, allows the path of the club and the hands to travel around and inside (on plane) due to angular momentum. This will result in the club head coming into the back of the ball instead of across it. By starting my downswing with the sliding of the hips out of their tilt first, my hands are more inside which causes the club head to square into the back of the ball.

Not moving my lower body first was probably the reason I was pushing my longer clubs. I was making solid contact with the ball, but I don’t think my hands were inside enough, which caused me to push the ball. The next time I go to the range, I’ll focus on lower body movement first and see if that straightens out my longer irons

link to Ben Hogan video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL_6M_xZvq0

Posted on November 28th, 2008 at 12:21 pm
147
TimothyW said:

Today, I went to the range, and practiced moving the lower body first as per the Ben Hogan video. Starting my downswing with the sliding of the hips forward straightened out my ball flight a great deal with my long irons. For the set up, I put a little extra weight to the left, and at the top of my swing slid my hips to trigger the downswing, this brought my hands much more inside. Also, the hip slide first, shallowed out the bottom of the swing so that the club head was more behind and not coming across the ball.

The ball flight I produced was a straight flight with a gentle fade. Also, moving the lower body first definitely helps with the driver swing as well as putting a little more weight forward at set up. Hopefully, this helps with those having problems hitting the driver.
I also teed the ball a just a little lower as well.

Posted on November 28th, 2008 at 10:42 pm
148
hanon said:

I have found a compilation of all the info about S&T which is available in the internet. Nice to have everything together:

http://rapidshare.com/files/60747900/The.internet.Guide.to.the.Stack.and.Tilt.golf.swing.October2007.edition.pdf

Posted on November 29th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
149
TimothyW said:

Took S&T to the course today for nine holes, and the results were very good. I hit 6 out of 9 fairways and 7 out of the 9 G.I.R. I shot a 40; my usual score for nine holes is between 49-51. Although every shot wasn’t perfect, my misses were playable for a good positioned pitch or chip shot. The highlights of my game were the following: a 7 iron into a 160 yard par 3….Before S&T, I would have used a 6 iron just to get to the fringe of the green. The other was a 280 yard drive that put me within 80 yards of the hole for a pitch shot on to the green. I still have a lot work to do with the swing, however, this swing will definitely lower my score for next season.

Posted on November 29th, 2008 at 7:39 pm
150
hanon said:

How to use a driver and not slice it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQfiABMRSkg

S&T theory to shape the shots. Draw: weight forward, inside-out path, point of tangency forward and clubface closed to the swing path

Posted on December 9th, 2008 at 6:09 pm
151
hanon said:

For those who don´t have the DVDs. In youtube there is a collection of four videos about the foundations and key positions of the S&T swing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTPhJkdhgs0

Posted on December 10th, 2008 at 1:35 pm
152
TimothyW said:

The Nick Clearwater videos are very good and detailed; he’s a little less cerebral than Mike and Andy in the explanation of the S & T swing

Posted on December 10th, 2008 at 8:17 pm
153
John said:

I just started implenting S & T. I have always hit a draw and my miss is a hook. My ball flight has always been low and S & T has not really changed that yet. My main question is how do I hit it higher and how do I hit a fade with S & T? Thanks for the help!

Posted on December 21st, 2008 at 7:52 am
154
Double Eagle said:

John, I’m trying to recall if Plummer and Bennett covered hitting a fade in the S&T DVDs and I’m drawing a blank. Someone else will certainly remember (or just know the answer). I know they covered the concept of how swing path affects ball flight.

However, it’s probably as simple as doing it with a conventional swing – just open the club face a little at address. Make sure you don’t just roll your hands over. You want to spin the handle of the club ever so slightly open in your hands.

Posted on December 21st, 2008 at 10:48 am
155
TimothyW said:

Double Eagle, Plummer and Bennett really don’t cover how to hit a fade per se. On DVD 1 in the chapter on controlling the curvature of the ball, they explain how to hit a push shot rather than a fade. In order to shape the ball from left to right, they explain that the point of tangency is forward in the stance, and less weight is placed forward in the stance. However, with a little experimenting, I found that if the hands are less forward and more centered at set up, and the ball slightly forward in the stance, and the weight distribution still 55/45 L/R, the ball will fade/push as well.

Having your hands centered at set up allows the club face to swing on a less of and inside path and more across the ball. Hope this helps

Posted on December 21st, 2008 at 7:34 pm
156
TimothyW said:

John, In order to get a higher ball flight, make sure you are turning your shoulders on a steep enough angle. In the DVD’s Mike and Andy talk about the left shoulder being pointed down enough. This’ll give you a steeper angle of descent into thr ball. Also, make sure your hands are going up as well in and around your body on the backswing. In addition, make sure you are getting a good hip turn on the tilted angle that they talk about, this helped out as well. One thing you could do is get a full length mirror and practice your back swing, this will help you immensely as far as making sure your hitting the positions correctly. I have been using stack and tilt for six months and having a mirror helped out a lot. Hope this helps.

Posted on December 21st, 2008 at 8:07 pm
157
Double Eagle said:

Excellent info, Timothy!

Posted on December 22nd, 2008 at 2:17 am
158
TimothyW said:

Had an unusally warm December day here in Kentucky and I took the Stack and Tilt swing to the course for 9 holes. Although it was warm, the course conditions were windy, so I had to be attentive to shot trajectory which at times I forgot about. But anyway, with the Stack and tilt, I hit 7 out of 9 fairways and 6 out 9 GIR’s for the front nine on the course that I played. I shot a 38, I had only one double bogey the third hole (par 3) that I missed the green on. The only problem that I had was pushing shots, suprisingly they were very playable misses. The reason I pushed a few shots was because, at times, I didn’t have my weight forward on the set up, and didn’t really get as good of a hip turn as I should have.

But when I was “stacked and tilted,” I struck the ball very well with a nice boring trajectory that stopped nicely on the greens. The highlights of my game was a choked up 7 iron shot into the last par 3 (160yds) in which the ball landed within two feet of the pin; I came up short on the birdie but pared it. The stack and Tilt will put me on the road to consistency, and when the spring comes, I plan to be playing to a single digit handicap with a little more work on putting. I know with regular playing and practice with stack and tilt
I can be in the 70′s consistenly or even lower.

Lastly, with the driver, I have to make sure that I’ve got my arms inside and move my hip a little more quickly on the downswing. Otherwise, Stack and Tilt has made the game enjoyable with more pars and less bogeys on the score card.

Posted on December 26th, 2008 at 8:39 pm
159
james said:

Im a london based golf professional and after 6 years of working on my swing everyday and not really seeing the results i decided to try thr stack and tilt swing, within 3 weeks i shot myt best ever score and have not looked back. I have gone from being a average local professional to a national champion, This swing really works.

Posted on December 31st, 2008 at 9:18 am
160
TimothyW said:

Had a chance to play again here in Kentucky this week, and the stack and tilt swing continues to produce results. I actually had the chance to play a full 18 holes with it and shot really well with it.
I hit every fairway with the driver. I have never been that consistent off the tee with the big stick. Distance wise, I was hitting out to about 250-260 yards, not really long but due to the cool windy conditions, however, I was practically dead center in the fairway. As far as iron play goes, I have to now club down because the Stack and Tilt swing has definitely added distance; for example, I almost airmailed a 160 yard par 3 with a 6 iron. I hit a 9 iron 140 yards into the front part of a 150 yard par 3 that was well guarded by bunkers, if missed the green in any way, par on this hole would’ve been a sand save.

As always, not every shot was great, however, I figured out that the shots that I missed I didn’t have enough weight forward and my left shoulder wasn’t pointed down enough which caused a few thin shots. What I like about this swing is that if one really studies it,and understands what has to happen in the various parts of the swing, one can easily correct deficiencies to get better.

Can’t wait till spring because regular play with this swing is definitely going to get me lower.

Posted on December 31st, 2008 at 1:40 pm
161
hanon said:

A nice explanation of keeping the flying wedge. The Flying wedge is the S&T core to get compression in the ball and promoting a solid contact. This link has also a couple of video attached:

http://mysite.verizon.net/gregjwillis/LESSON1.htm

Posted on January 2nd, 2009 at 3:30 pm
162
TimothyW said:

Thanks Hanon for the info, I’ve been concentrating on the flying wedge drills for the right wrist angle off the YouTube Nick Clearwater videos, and they have helped in getting compression on the ball by bring the club face square into the target. I went to the range and did the drill, and I then hit full swing shots concentrating on holding the right wrist angle. Maintaining the right wrist has definitely straightened out my long irons and hybrids. If done correctly, the flying wedge is maintained into the follow through; the right wrist angle never fully released. A point of reference for me is that my right hand is not rolled on top of my left. The rolling of the wrist is instructed to a lot of beginning golfers as means to square the club face by manipulating the club head into impact position.

In my opinion, the concept of timing and tempo in the modern 2 plane weight shift golfswing, originated in the fact the body moves off the ball on the backswing and comes back forward in the downswing. Since this type of swing is arm dominant, manipulation of the clubhead using the hands is inevitable to a degree which means that the right wrist angle has to be released at the right moment at the bottom of the arc of the swing. If the tempo is on, then the club head is relatively square and releases (straight), if the tempo is off, then the clubhead either blocks (slice), or hoods itself (hook).

Posted on January 3rd, 2009 at 12:34 am
163
TimothyW said:

Thanks Hanon, for the info on the right wrist drill. Maintaining the right wrist angle has definitely helped out in accuracy and distance. Maintaining tha flying wedge has also helped straighten out my driver and long irons as well.

Posted on January 3rd, 2009 at 12:43 am
164
hanon said:

In “The Golfing Machine” and “The Impact Zone” one of the imperatives for a great golf swing is to keep the left wrist flat at impact. In fact this is the same as the S&T foundation of keeping the right wrist bent (keeping the flying wedge): if you keep the right wrist bent yo will have a flat left wrist at impact. It´s the same idea expressed in two different ways.

Anyway, this is an essential aspect to get a consistent and powerful swing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm8nXn34yUU

Posted on January 3rd, 2009 at 8:19 am
165
TimothyW said:

Left wrist flat and right wrist bent are definitely keys to accuracy and power. Also, a lot of golf mags talk about creating lag which is the ability to stress the club shaft on the down swing. Creating lag means keeping the hands in front of the shaft. By maintaining the right wrist angle the club is not “flipped” by the wrist turning over, as a lot of beginning players are taught to do, the turning of the body actually squares the club face. Also, as a beginning golfer, my pro instructed me to “release” my hands which was misunderstood to uncock the wrist at the right time at the bottom of the swing in time with the turning of the body. I can’t tell you how much frustration this caused as stated I have to work on swing in tempo. What I should’ve been taught was how to control the radius of the swing with the proper setting of the wrists

Posted on January 3rd, 2009 at 9:39 pm
166
hanon said:

What about the accumulators? Nobody talks about them and I think it´s an important part of the S&T and also a source for more power into the swing (maybe this is the cause that some people who don´t use them say that they are loosing some distance).

In the DVDs is clearly explained that you should release your 4th and 1st accumulator in order to get you in proper position to hit the ball, and avoid the right shoulder to go down a lot. My idea is that S&T is a swing that used both the body and arms to swing the club and I think that many people (erroneously) think that it´s a swing only driven by the body pivot with the arms remaining passive. I think the arm must be active during the downswing.

The proper timing needs first to start with the pivot, later on release the 4th accumulator, and afterwards release the 1st accumulator. In my opinion this is the sequence:

A) PIVOT: slide the hips to start moving the whole body.

B) RELEASE THE 4TH ACCUMULATOR: this accumulator is the PULLING down of the left arm.

C) RELEASE THE 1ST ACCUMULATOR: this accumulator is the right arm bent which start to get straightened. This release is a PUSHING action of the right arm down.

If you watch some S&T videos of the tour player you will see how their arms separate away from the right shoulder from the first moment, and this is not only consequence of the pivot but also of the arms action ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgbubywoLCw ). It gives them a more erect position through the swing avoiding getting the right shoulder too low, allowing to turn the shoulder in a perfect circle -which is one of the foundation of this swing-. Also releasing the accumulators may help to hit the driver better and get few pushes.

This combined action of PULLING (left) + PUSHING (right) gives more velocity to the club and in my case it helps me to keep my flying wedge since it provides a steady acceleration of the club.

Check this video to get a visual idea of these thoughts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJggZwmFq2o

What´s your opinion about all this?

Posted on January 8th, 2009 at 6:10 pm
167
TimothyW said:

Hanon
As far as the accumulators go, one should undestand how they transmit the power of the swing by working together…You are absolutely right about the pushing and pulling action providing velocity. However, with the fourth accumulator, its imperative that it remain relatively straight in order to transmit any power to the ball. If the fourth accumulator breaks down, for example, the arms pulling apart or the left arm flexing on the backswing, then a lot of power will be lost on the downswing. Also, keeping the left arm straight, or rather the left wrist flat at impact, aids in maintaining the flying wedge. If the left wrist breaks down then the flying wedge is gone.

Posted on January 19th, 2009 at 11:37 pm
168
Double Eagle said:

I’m not sure everyone who comes in to stay on top of this comment thread checks the front page, but I just wanted to mention that I recently took a look at the effectiveness of the Stack and Tilt swing. Read more here

Posted on January 19th, 2009 at 11:47 pm
169
white sox dave said:

I am 60-year old, recently retired golf fanatic. Going through a miserable Michigan winter I have had some time studying the S/T concept. As I read these comments I notice a lot of trepidation in regards to this new swing hurting joints or causing soreness. I had lower back problems until two years ago when I started stretching 5 times a week. A consistent stretching routine can prevent any soreness or discomfort that the S/T would bring. Also, stretching will give the golfer more flexibility which will enhance the components of the s/t swing. ie. weight shift and take away at the same time, pelvic thrust, and the important extended follow through which will give us old guys distance. Fellow baby boomers, find a physical therapist who specializes in golf (yes, there is such an animal) and/or purchase the Roger Frederick’s dvd. Take dead aim.

Posted on January 25th, 2009 at 10:00 pm
170
Double Eagle said:

Great points, Dave.

I know the trouble I’ve had with my knee and back is really kept at bay when I stretch and strengthen those areas.

Posted on January 25th, 2009 at 10:36 pm
171
hanon said:

Woods – Baaddley Match. Really interesting to watch those swings:

http://www.dailymotion.com/related/x49oom_stack-and-tilt-aaron-baddeley-de-do_sport/video/x4h1wa_ch-matchplay-j3-woods-baddeley_sport?from=rss

Posted on January 27th, 2009 at 4:57 pm
172
TimothyW said:

Hanon

Those videos are great, it looks like all of the golfers exhibited some form of stack and tilt in their swings

Posted on January 27th, 2009 at 8:36 pm
173
TimothyW said:

Hanon
Those videos were great, it looks like all of the golfers had some form of stack and tilt in their swings.

Posted on January 27th, 2009 at 8:53 pm
174
hanon said:

Interview to Mike Bennett and some thoughts about S&T:

http://videos.syracuse.com/post-standard/2008/10/jordan_native_mike_bennett_on.html

Posted on February 6th, 2009 at 12:07 pm
175
jools78 said:

Hi

In the Turning Stone video we see Bennet hitting divots in front of a golf club set on the ground. I notice the club on the ground is very near his front foot, and (seems to me) even ahead of the swing centres of his hips. Is it me or have I been doing it wrong?

I haven’t got the dvd yet, but can anyone please explain this? I have been doing the stack and tilt and is a fan of it. Having good success with it but always want to get more details. Just needed some of you guys to elaborate.

Posted on February 16th, 2009 at 3:52 am
176
steve said:

if you all want to learn more about the stack and tilt golf swing dana dahlquist has the best forum on the net about it. dahlquistgolf.informe.com

also if you have facebook there is a good stack and tilt group on there in which we have andy posting on the wall

Posted on April 1st, 2009 at 10:44 pm
177
No Bogies said:

Okay, I’ve been reading about the S&T for a while, toyed with it on the range and have used it a few times on the course. I finally decided to try and play a whole round on the course this past weekend using the Stack and Tilt swing. I was playing by myself so decided what the heck.

I’ve really only used the swing with my short irons previously to this. Didn’t hit the driver very well at all, but I couldn’t hit the driver with my conventioal swing either. But, to my surprise I was hitting FW and hybrids well. My chipping stunk but all was going pretty well until the 14th hole. I had two back-to-back severe pull-snap-hooks with a hybrid off the tee and a 5-iron out of the rough. Anyone know what could cause this? So I went back to my normal swing for the next two shots and then back to the S&T to finish up. All in all not a bad round (except for my chipping) shot an 82. So, a good round for me but nothing really spectacular or something I haven’t done before. I’m a 14.7 handicap and this was a par 71 course.

However, after the round and analyzing my shots I realized that nothing, not a single shot with the S&T swing went right. That’s a plus for me. My normal miss, even with a 5 iron, is a slice. So other than those two nasty snap hooks a good round on which I can build some confidence.

I’m contemplating buying the DVD’s so I can give the swing a real test. Hey, if it can fix my driver than I will be totally sold!

Posted on May 11th, 2009 at 4:05 pm
178
Double Eagle said:

That’s great, No Bogies. I’m confident that with a little work, you can get the driver going the way you want. I’m not sure you really need to do anything differently with the driver, but given it’s more prone to error, it’s probably just a matter of getting your Stack and Tilt fundamentals a little tighter. If you click the Stack and Tilt category either at the top of this post or at the bottom of the page, you’ll see all the related posts and you’ll find tons of comments about the swing and a number with questions (and answers) about hitting the driver. There’s probably some above here, but I’ve lost track now that this makes 178 comments on this post alone.

Posted on May 11th, 2009 at 8:45 pm
179
Paladin said:

Hi everyone,

I’ve long read this site but have never posted before. I have two basic questions and I’d like any feedback some of you may have to offer.

First, I haven’t seen anyone address definitively how B&P apply S&T to the short game. I’m talking about chips and short pitches around the green. It seems to me that on these shots, you couldn’t have your swing centers lined up and a vertical spine because you don’t have time to transition into the proper hitting position on the downswing. In other words, we’re talking about shots here where the club doesn’t come back much above the waist, if it gets above the waist at all. So, since you start the downswing from that low position — where in a full swing you’d already have your weight well forward, the hips moved forward and the spine tilted back — it seems to me that you’d have to start in that position, which is conventional chipping a pitching doctrine. That is to say, starting with perhaps 70 percent of the weight on the front foot, the hips moved forward and the spine titled back.

I hope I explained this sufficiently well so that everyone can conceptualize what I’m trying to relate. Please let me know if you know what B&P say about this.

The second question I have pertains to distance, and I’ll give you a little background about myself. I began with S&T about two and a half years ago and immediately had great success. I then had a short rough period but realized that I was overdoing some of the actions, got things ironed out and started striking the ball phenomenally well. I can almost say I owned my swing, in that I could go to the range or course and KNOW I would hit the ball well. I then went from about a 5.5 handicap (and I was struggling to stay there) to about a 3.3.

The problem is that I never had good distance. I’m a fairly big guy but only carry my driver about 250; thus, if it’s a firm fairway and I get some roll, I might be able to squeak it out there 275 if I’m lucky.

What happened then was, in an effort to gain distance, I started fooling around with my swing, exaggerated the S&T positions AGAIN and messed myself up royally. I’m finally getting back on track after one and a half years of relative hacking, but I’m still concerned about the distance factor.

Now, I’ll get to the point (please forgive me for being long-winded). Although I’m not a small guy, I don’t have good flexibility; thus, if it wasn’t for something I’m about to mention, I’d maybe just resign myself to the idea that distance isn’t in the cards for me. But here’s the story: when I first heard about S&T, I was at a relative’s course and didn’t know much about it. All I really knew was that you didn’t shift your weight backwards. So I went to the range there, he balls and was astounded. Not only was the solidity unprecedented for me, but I was also hitting my hybrid as far as my driver, and my driver was going a mile. Now, mind you, I had hit at this range before and am a low handicapper, so I knew exactly how far my shots usually went there. There also was no wind, so I cannot attribute it to the conditions.

OK, I’m about to wrap it up. There was one big difference between what I experienced that day and what happened subsequently. Although I wasn’t thinking about the “crushing the can” move, I felt myself do exactly that, naturally, and explode powerfully off the ground. Later on, however — even when I was hitting it dead solid perfect — I could never cultivate that feeling, try as I might. And, as I said, this was attended by my usual lack of distance.

So, my question is, do any of you sense that exploding-off-the-ground feeling and, if so, do you have any advice for how I can regain it? My theory is that, unlike that first day at the range, I’m not putting myself in a position from which you HAVE to spring up; I suspect that I’m unwittingly taking my legs out of the equation and sacrificing that power source.

That easy, raw power was a great thing to experience, and I’d love to get it back.

Thank you in advance for any advice you may have and for reading this very verbose post.

Posted on May 23rd, 2009 at 1:48 pm
180
Double Eagle said:

Paladin, the DVD set does include a section on the short game, but it’s been a while since I watched it so I’m not sure where they go with it. If I have a chance, I’ll pop it in and brush up and let you know. In the meantime there are probably readers that are much more familiar that can speak to that question. However, I’ll say this: regardless of which version of the full swing you choose to employ, I highly recommend Dave Pelz’s short game techniques. If I was using a Stack and Tilt, I’m not sure I’d be looking for a mini-Stack and Tilt to use around the greens. I believe I would stick with the Pelz philosophy. But that’s just me, and I’m not saying that’s the best thing for you or anyone else.

Regarding the distance question, I think we need an active Stack and Tilter to weigh in on that because my knowledge of the swing never went much past scratching the surface. It may take a bit to see a reply, but there are a ton of helpful people stopping by regularly and I’m confident someone will have some thoughts on the matter.

It may be something as simple as just setting out at the range to do the swing basics as you first learned them. In fact, maybe start with the Golf Digest article and use it like a checklist to check up on all the critical parts of the swing.

It does mention (on pg. 2) the rotational aspect being critical with the hips needing to level out to get that springing feeling you’re looking for.

Posted on May 23rd, 2009 at 7:02 pm
181
Paladin said:

Double Eagle,

Thank you for the prompt response. And thank you for your efforts. I will be back to check the responses.

Posted on May 23rd, 2009 at 9:45 pm
182
TimothyW said:

Paladin

If you are doing all the parts of the swing correctly as far as the stack and tilt swing is concern, it sounds like your power leak is coming from your hips getting lazy in transition. The springing up action as Plummer and Bennett refer is actually the lateral movement of the hips left from the tilted angle on the backswing. I’ve been using S&T for a year with pretty good results. At the beginning of a round, I would be hitting the ball solidly, but after a while, I would be losing power because my hip slide became lazy. A major power source for this swing is that hip slide back to the left. Hope this helps.

Posted on May 23rd, 2009 at 10:30 pm
183
Paladin said:

Timothy,

Thank you for the response. I didn’t expect a poster to address this so quickly.

Actually, I was working on the hip slide today at the range. I understand why it’s such a significant power source, and it is something I probably was lacking. Even when I was hitting every shot between the screws, I didn’t really slide the hips very aggressively. Part of the reason for this is that I’ve never been the kind of guy who tried to hit hard; I’ve always swung with an even tempo.

And I realize that perhaps this is part of the problem. I noticed that when I tried to hit harder today, I naturally slid the hips more aggressively (then again, I was also working with the knowledge that that was what I should do).

I do have a couple of questions, though: do B&P say that the hip slide is the main power source? And, do they say this is synonymous with the “crushing the can” move? Is the latter conceptualization just a way of helping people cultivate the hip-slide action? Because the first time I tried S&T, back when I didn’t know what I was doing, I naturally felt a pronounced “crushing the can” move. And the power was effortless.

Posted on May 24th, 2009 at 12:25 am
184
TimothyW said:

Paladin

In addressing your questions
1st B&P don’t say specifically that the hip slide is the main source of power, however in any golf swing model, the movement of the hips is a key power factor because it’s how one gets back to and through the ball from the top of the swing. An aggessive hip slide is actually what prevents a reverse pivot with this swing since the spine is “tilted” towards the target on the backswing. The aggressive hip slide is key to releasing the spine angle while still keeping the majority of bodyweight on the left side. If the hip slide isn’t agressive then ones bodyweight will translate backwards on the right leg a la reverse pivot.

As to the latter part of your question, is the crushing can move synonymous with the hip slide? They never mention the crushing the can move in their videos, however, my conjecture is that they used this illustration to simply reinforce keeping ones bodyweight left from the downswing to the finish.

Posted on May 24th, 2009 at 1:20 am
185
Paladin said:

Timothy,

The reason why I am interested in cultivating that “crushing the can” move is that big hitters tend to explode off the ground powerfully. Tiger Woods straightens his left knee explosively (the source of his knee problems, actually) and calls it “popping the knee.” I’m not worried about knee problems myself because I don’t possess his kind of power and thus wouldn’t be stressing the connective tissues as much. But perhaps I have to let this develop in an evolutionary fashion.

I also do realize that every good swing involves a hip slide; it’s just that I don’t think it was something I did as aggressively as I could have.

Posted on May 24th, 2009 at 10:25 am
186
Double Eagle said:

Timothy/Paladin, I think the “crush the can” imagery is to help with leveling the hips. When the pelvic thrust that they refer to starts, you can’t continue to turn correctly if the hips don’t level.

When I experimented with the swing, I had that imagery in mind, but really it was kind of synonymous with whipping the left leg straight for me. Once I started the thrust, and whipped that leg straight, it did kind of feel like I was doing that.

I may have commented on this before (maybe even in this huge thread) but I think they might have omitted “crushing the can” from the DVDs because it can be a little confusing what it really means.

Posted on May 24th, 2009 at 10:30 am
187
William said:

Hey everybody,

I came across the Stack and Tilt technique yesterday when a friend gave me the dvds. He said he never watched them cause he’s quite happy with his golf swing and afraid to destroy it.

Read a lot on the internet that s/t is not really recommended for beginners and since I haven’t played any turnaments at all, my handicap is -54, so I consider myself a beginner.

My typical golf problems where total inconsistency and a lot of miss hits: fat, thin, etc. I felt my golf swing was pretty wobbly – meaning my hips moved in addition to turning to the right during the backswing a lot. Too much if you ask me. So I hit the ground in front of the ball, behind the ball, etc. Some flew left, some right, some not at all.

So, I only saw like two or three videos on youtube and the first dvd. Watched the first minutes of the second and decided, that’s too much detail for now. I didn’t really like their style of explaining, but what they said made total sense to me.

It was too late already to go the range or infact anywhere, so I did a couple of swings in the living room. Besides destroying a light bulb (no kidding, i really did), i could already feel how much I liked the swing.

Too me it feels like my woobly movement to the right is totally restricted by the left knee moving forward. The only possible thing now is proper turn.

Anyway, so I went to the range today. 33°C (that’s like .. let’s say A LOT in Fahrenheit). But the golf swing … I am totally amazed. I can’t believe how nicely almost all the balls flew. Out of a 100 balls I had maybe 5 or so mishits. That’s an insane improvement, usually it’s about a third or so.

With the short irons a nice 10-20 meters/yards more and very straigt. With the long irons I didn’t feel any additional length but way improved accuracy.

With the woods it feels to me, like I lost about 10-20 yards, but who cares, if they’re that accurate. I can’t wait to play the course. Unfortunately I’m stuck in Germany and nobody will let you on the course unless you’re a member in a golf club. Applied for the membership but it’s only gonna be in July.

Right now, I’m so excited, this is definitely the biggest boost in my golf swing I’ve experienced so far.

Posted on May 25th, 2009 at 2:34 pm
188
Paladin said:

William,

S&T absolutely is the way to go; it’s simply the proper way to swing.

If you’ve lost distance with your woods, it probably just means that you’re coming into the ball too steeply. This is common when people first switch to S&T because it puts you more over the ball, thus creating a steeper angle of attack. With a little understanding and application, you can easily develop the feel for shallowing out the swing path on the downswing so as to eliminate this problem.

Posted on May 25th, 2009 at 9:40 pm
189
William said:

Paladin,

thank you for your response. I don’t know whether it’s the way to swing, but it’s definitely one that suits me very well.

By now I’ve watched the second dvd, too and sucked up a lot of additional information. Watching those dvds I really get a nice feel for what looks natural in a golf swing. When they purposely demonstrate how to not do it, I get way quicker in recognizing that.

But doing it yourself is a whole other story. Maybe I’d need a giant mirror or a video camera on the range

As for the distance, I’m very confident it’ll come back as soon as I’ve gotten used to it a bit more.

As soon as the sky clears up a bit (total opposite to yesterday) I’ll be on the range again. Can’t wait.

Bill

Posted on May 26th, 2009 at 6:00 am
190
Paladin said:

Bill,

Actually, you read my mind in a way. It’s very difficult to effect any change without good feedback, either from a video camera or a knowledgeable individual with a good eye. I was going to mention that but didn’t want to sound a negative note in my first response to you.

I myself cannot tell you how much I have used a video camera, and I often found myself doing things I never expected. What you feel you’re doing is often not what you’re actually doing, even if you’re an experienced golfer (I was down as low as a 3.3 handicap and still had the problem).

However, once you get the S$T swing down pat, you’re technique won’t fluctuate. This is because it is the natural way to swing and thus doesn’t require constant “pruning.”

Posted on May 26th, 2009 at 9:15 am
191
William said:

Hey Paladin,

I’m just back from the range and very satisfied. The swing is getting more and more “fluent”. I still have to force myself into thinking “Weight to the left”, “Keep head down”, “Don’t move shoulder rotation axis”, but it works.

Yesterday the swing was still very rough, while today it was more a swing then a push with too much force. Especially with the woods yesterday as I lost distance I tried to compensate with power and that just pushed me into wrong movements. Forcing me to hit the ground in the wrong spot or simply having a bad contact with the ball.

Today it got way more relaxed and I was more and more able to get speed from the shoulder turn instead of rushing down too quickly.

With a 3 wood I’m still only at about 170-200 meters as opposed to roughly 220 before when I managed to hit it properly. But far more accurate. Sometimes the ball still seems to have weird flight paths (forward spin?) as it comes down pretty quickly, but still has lots of speed and energy in it to keep bouncing for quite some time.

I also realized that when playing from the tee, I need to put the tee way lower than usual. I sometimes even hit the ball with the top of the club face shooting it almost straight into the air. Before I couldn’t get the tee high enough.

But the best results were with my 7 iron today. It had such a nice flight path, the ball rising and rising till the very last moment when it dropped nicely. I assume that speaks for a pretty nice ball contact.

As for the camera. Unfortunately neither do I own one (although I’ve wanted a nice HD one for quite some time), nor am I so sure they’d be ok with that as I’m no member in ther club and (most) Germans have very weird attitudes to golf…

I’ll keep training on the range as long as I still make improvements and no obvious and consistent major mistakes in my swing. Once I find something like that, I’ll try and get a camera and post my swing on the internet.

Thanks for your support – especially as I’m a beginner

Posted on May 26th, 2009 at 10:55 am
192
William said:

Hey, me again,

on Sunday i finally got the chance to play 9 holes and it worked pretty great, but since then i’ve been on the range three times and it is a mere catastrophe. I’m not hitting any more balls. Just hitting into the ground or topping the ball. If i actually make contact with the ball (about 10 out of 100 tries) it goes extremly right or left.

Have no idea what’s gone wrong and it gets worse from time to time. Out of the last 500 balls i played, about 450 were hit extremly fat or thin. Out of the 50 with good contact, a third went right, a third left and maybe a third straight.

And the funny thing is two weeks ago, out of a hundred balls 90 were more or less straight and not a single one, was not hit at all. Don’t know what’s gone wrong.

Unfortunately the range won’t allow me to bring a camera, so I have to find an open spot, where I can do golf swings and bring the cam (not so easy).

I’m actually thinking of giving S/T up complety, so i can take lessons from a pro. Cause not only were the last 50 bucks on the range a total waste of money, but also it’s just no fun when everything worked perfectly and then overnight I lost everything.

Thought I’m gonna give it another 2 or 3 attemps before I posted it, but it actually got worse. It’s probably a head thing, but still it’s horrible.

Posted on June 13th, 2009 at 9:04 am
193
Double Eagle said:

Sorry to hear that William. Even though I don’t use the Stack and Tilt, I had a similar experience lately. I was making big progress on the range with my pro and after a particular lesson, my next two range sessions were a disaster. I quickly scheduled another lesson and it turned out to be something very minor that was fixed immediately and I was back to hitting great shots on the range.

I know this doesn’t help you with the Stack and Tilt because it’s difficult to find a pro to help you with that swing. My only point is that it might be something minor.

Are there any other ranges around that will let you take video? That might go a long way to solving the problem, especially if you post a link here because there are several Stack and Tilt experts that might be able to spot the issue.

What about playing a late-evening 9-holes and sneaking the camera out on the course? If you can do it without holding anyone up, it might be the way to go.

The other option is to approach other pros in the area and ask them if they can help you with the Stack and Tilt. You might luck out with someone who understands it some.

Posted on June 13th, 2009 at 11:10 am
194
William said:

Hey Double Eagle,

thanks for the nice reply. It’s great to know, there’s plenty of people on the net willing to help. I can only imagine it’s something minor as I’m still approaching every shot the same way as I did two weeks ago.

Google-searching for “Stack and Tilt” with the language filter set to German return 375 results. Those are either Webshops offering the DVDs or pages that are not really german / from Germany. So, finding a S/T pro near here is virtually impossible.

Yeah, about the cam, it’s a bit ridiulous. I haven’t tried every single range in the area, but the fact that the least stuck-up range I know alreday had a problem with me filming myself made me lose hope. I don’t know whether they’re afraid I’m competition to their expensive video analysis or I’m abusing the footage in any way to make the range or their customers look back.

Anyway, I am gonna find a place to tape my swing, whether it’s just a meadow somewhere in the country (actually having a place in mind as I type) or a real driving range.

About the 9-holes that’s also a great idea. But since the lowest green fee (27 Eur) is just as high as a 30min pro lesson (31 Eur), I’d rather consider that.

So far it was the fact that they’re not teaching S/T that kept me from going to a pro (well that and me not having lots of problems), but right now I’m actually thinking whatever my problem is should be found by a good pro. I guess it’s a timing issue, at least that’s what I’m most insecure about. It might be that he’s gonna critize missing weight shifting through the swing or something – or maybe he’s even heard of Stack and Tilt.

Or maybe he’s even gonna show me what caused me to switch to S/T in the first place. I’m no ideologist favoring S/T. I’m fine with whatever makes me play great shots. It was just that after trying out S/T I got so much better, so quickly.

Anyway, it’s really motivating to talk about possible solutions – whether it’s for the cam or the swing – with you guys. I surely hope, I can go back to playing great swings again shortly.

Thanks, Bill.

Posted on June 13th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
195
hanon said:

Hi everyone,

A long time since my last visit and post. It´s good to see that this S&T thread keeps alive -which I think it´s great since there are very few places as full of S&T info as this one-.

I stopped posting since my results with S&T were not as good as expected with long irons ( my hip slice was not as good as I liked, something wrong with it), so I started using another technique ( I recommend you to have a look to the Golf Swing Master Key, google it. It´s great to simplify the swing). Now I am doing a kind of mix between this technique and S&T so I am trying to control my swing just by being aware of my left shoulder rotation around my spine and being stacked over the ball (no weight transfer ala S&T). I am improving my results at the same time that the swing keeps simple, which was at the beginning with S&T but later on became too complicated with too many things to check. This is why I gave up with the pure S&T

For all you interested in S&T I send you a link to a file with all the key points: click here.

I got it from here but as this site requires registration and some of you may not be able to enter I have post it in the previous link.

One last thing: S&T in based on The Golfing Machine theory which deived the golfers in two kinds: SWINGERS and HITTERS. Swingers are those who PULL the club dominated by centrigugal force generated by the left side (for righties golfers). Hitter are those who PUSH the club (centripetal force generated by powering with the right arm extending). TGM says that you can be a swinger or a hitter but not both. S&T was designed as one hitter´s type of swing (as far as I have read it´s what the TGM guys call a “punch shot”) so if someone is a swinger (left side dominance) maybe is going to be a bit extrange to start using his right arm and can be more difficult to get S&T working soon. S&T seem to be a mix of both types since you release the 1st and 4th accumulator at the same time (pulling and pushing with the arms from the top)

Regards

Posted on June 13th, 2009 at 4:02 pm
196
Double Eagle said:

That’s very interesting, Hanon. I wonder if similar experiences are what’s causing some of the top pros to switch, as well.

I have a copy of The Golfing Machine on my book pile, but I’ve only gotten around to just starting it, It’s interesting what you say about the hitters and swingers. Based on that description, I think I’m definitely a hitter.

Posted on June 13th, 2009 at 6:31 pm
197
Paladin said:

William,

I can possible help you. In fact, I’m certain I could if I were with you.

First, understand that you’re following the typical pattern; generally, people have overnight success with S&T and then experience a rough patch. However, although I can appreciate psychological factors, I do not believe they are the cause.

What generally happens is this: People have great overnight success by implementing S&T, which, like all actions, involves certain feelings. The player gets a certain feeling (i.e., an amalgamation of keeping the weight forward, getting the tilting feeling, etc.) to a certain degree and, of course, this causes him to perform a certain action to a certain degree. The problem is that once an action becomes familiar, it doesn’t “feel” the same way anymore because it is more a part of you. Thus, if you continue to try to get the SAME feeling to the same degree, you will perform the action to a GREATER degree; hence, you will be overdoing it.

And that is what happens with Stack-and-tilters. They inadvertently overdo the S&T action by continuing to try to get the same feeling even once it’s more familiar. It’s a common mistake; I’ve done it myself. Now, I hope I explained that sufficiently well.

So here is my advice. First, it is imperative that you get some feedback, either from someone who knows the swing or from a video camera. And if you can shoot yourself, if you’d like, you can send me the video file and I’ll be happy to evaluate it. I actually do have a trained eye, as I used to teach tennis for many years. I am now also a low-handicap golfer.

In the meantime, don’t abandon S&T, but you can try to gear back on the S&T FEELING. And another factor in this is that people have the wrong conception of the swing, in that they think the action is more extreme than it is. They then put a gratuitous amount of weight forward, tilt too much, and disaster ensues. This is partially the fault of Bennett and Plumber because, frankly, those exaggerated pictures they had in Golf Digest are deceptive. They are designed to give the average golfer a conception of the feelings he should cultivate. However, harking back to what I said earlier, if the golfer persists in doing so over the long term, he will start to exaggerate the positions and actually get into those Golf Digest positions. And that’s the kiss of death.

I would be surprised if what I describe wasn’t happening in your case, William. I say this not only because it’s the typical pattern, but because the symptoms you describe could be caused by exaggerating the S&T positions. What I think is happening is this: you have too much weight forward and are tilting too much. This can cause your symptoms because to hit a golf ball oyu have to shift your hips forwards so that the shoulders tilt upwards and the club is dropped onto the correct plane, a shallower one. This is a constant in any golf swing. But if your weight is already too far forward, how can this happen? f you shift your hips forward, you move even MORE weight past the ball, are way in front of it, and then push it, top it and/or hit it thin. If you don’t shift the hips forward, you don’t experience the aforementioned transition, and then you’re simply swinging down on the ball very, very steeply. What it is, is an extreme over-the-top move, and this will cause fat shots and/or pulls. I hope you can conceptualize that well based on my description.

OK, I know this is turning into a book, so I’ll wrap it up. Remember that the S&T swing is NOT really that extreme. B&P say that only 55 percent of your weight should be on your left side at address, so you are almost evenly balanced. Moreover, do not try to shift any more weight forward on the backswing; they say that a little more weight MAY shift forward, but this would be incidental and slight. Just think about starting almost evenly balanced and staying that way. Lastly, do not try to tilt. Just keep your head completely still, and that will take care of itself. I hope this helps.

As for the no-filming policy at the ranges, that’s insane. My mother is originally from Germany and I have been there many times. And they really are insane with their nanny-state, puppeteer mentality.

Posted on June 13th, 2009 at 10:57 pm
198
Double Eagle said:

Paladin, I modified your original comment as per your update and deleted the update. If I didn’t get it correct, please let me know and I’ll fix it.

I also wanted to mention that I think your point about trying to get the same feeling after it has already become somewhat natural is a brilliant one. It’s a good bet that’s why our swings are kind of like pendulums sometimes in the sense that we do something incorrectly, fix it and then proceed to go too far in that direction and then have to swing back the other direction.

I’ve done that exact thing with my swing. I had a way of taking the club away to the outside of the target line, which I worked hard to fix. Then, I started taking it back way too far to the inside, which caused different problems. Then I worked with my pro to eliminate that and now I’m back to taking it outside, which I’m working on eliminating again. This time, however, I think I have a good idea of all the correct feelings and motions, so I think I can fix it for good. However, when I do, I’m going to have to trust it and also observe it regularly to make sure I don’t start taking it too far inside again.

Posted on June 13th, 2009 at 11:14 pm
199
William said:

Hey guys,

i’m just back from the range. I took Paladin’s advice and it went a little better, but more importantly I shot 4GB of AVCHD footage. Got a lot of sorting out, cutting and encoding to do, but I’ll definitely post some video later today.

Thanks again for all of your help,
Bill

Posted on June 14th, 2009 at 7:24 am
200
William said:

Update: I managed to cut some shots together into a 7min video. I didn’t wanna write so much stuff down, so I just put some commentary on top of the video. If you’re annoyed by my stupid comments, just turn the audio off – you’re not missing anything

Anyway, thanks a lot to all of you guys for watching for the video and telling me how to improve my S/T-swing. There’s two mistakes I’ve found so far:
- I have way too much leg action. My leg movement is totally exaggerated. Never knew that, but now it’s so obvious
- Especially on the iron shots it looks like the plane is a bit too high/steep…

.. but see for yourself, thanks again

Posted on June 14th, 2009 at 6:22 pm
201
William said:

Sorry, forgot to add the link. There we go:
http://2under.de/stack-tilt-video/

Posted on June 14th, 2009 at 6:23 pm
202
Double Eagle said:

William,

Great quality video! I know the guys here will be able to give you tons of excellent advice, but on a brief watching, I noticed something that stood out at me.

Here’s a screen capture of you hitting your 5-iron:

I see two things of concern. First, your swing is a lot longer than what we might typically see in other Stack and Tilt players. I need to try and find an example, but even in the Will MacKenzie example in the original post, you can see that he’s not even getting to parallel. I believe Baddely was the same way, but I need to find some video examples to be certain.

Second, your club has come across the plane at the top. You can see that the club head is hidden by your head. I don’t think your more upright plane is necessarily a problem, because there are Stack and Tilt players whose left arms are more vertical than the shoulders (a two-plane version). I think, though, that the fact that your club is pointing well right of the target could be a big issue. It should probably point somewhat more toward the target.

Another thing I noticed by holding a pencil over your centers (head, chest, ball) during several of the shots is that on some, you did get behind the ball some, but on the one where you gave a thumbs-up, you seemed to stay much more centered.

These are just a few things that crossed my mind after the initial viewing (I’m about half way through). I’m sure there will be a ton more advice and analysis coming.

Posted on June 14th, 2009 at 6:54 pm
203
Double Eagle said:

Here’s another example that illustrates what I mean, with the length of the swing:

As you can see there, you take the club well past parallel. You’re getting into John Daly territory there, which probably is bad, even with the conventional swing.

This particular frame was taken at 6:14. If you roll the video to the address prior to that swing, it also looks like the ball is somewhat behind center. Some of that might be attributable to the camera angle, but I think it’s still somewhat back. Using a pencil again as a reference point over top of your centers, clearly the ball is a few inches behind center.

And looking at your left knee in that shot makes mine ache.

Posted on June 14th, 2009 at 7:12 pm
204
Paladin said:

Ok, Bill, I viewed your video. First, wow, you have great flexibility; you definitely have tremendous potential. I wish I possessed such flexibility.

Now, with all due respect to our friend Double Eagle, I have to part company with him on your leg action. Many pros have had such leg action, especially those of some years back. Jack Nicklaus, for instance, and Tom Watson had quite a bit of it. I know that a quieter lower body is in vogue today, but that doesn’t make it right. Remember that the old-time players also tended to use a technique closer to S&T, and there is much reason to think that their more natural technique was closer to the ideal.

Anyway, my only point about the leg action is that it’s not a fundamental, as a fundamental is something that must be done to achieve proficiency in a given endeavor. So it doesn’t matter much if you’re legsy or not, although I wouldn’t alter something natural that isn’t a flaw. It isn’t your problem.

Before I delve into your main fault, let me say that my initial guess was half right. You don’t tilt too much, but it does appear that there is a bit too much weight on your left side.

Now for the main problem: contact position. If you’ll notice, you cast the club a bit and lose the sharp angle between the forearms and club (created by the wrist hinge, of course) early in the downswing. Then, by the time you reach contact, your left wrist appears to be cupped a bit — a result of that casting action — as opposed to being flat or actually a bit bowed. Note that the proper contact position is a constant in ANY good golf swing, and it’s also one of THE most important aspects of the swing. If it is correct, it’s hard to hit bad shots; if it’s incorrect, it’s hard not to.

Note also that, not surprisingly, this is something Bennett and Plumber emphasize. They call the maintenance of the proper angle on the downswing and the proper contact position “the flying wedge.” It’s a bit of a gimmicky name, but the point is that they’re referring to this all-important aspect of the golf swing.

Now, at the risk of being redundant, I cannot over-emphasize the importance of proper contact position. I discovered myself some years ago that it is almost the end-all and be-all, and there is a golf pro named Marc Solomon who, quite correctly, makes it the centerpiece of his teaching method (unfortunately, he also poo-poos S&T, but that’s a different matter).

As for correcting the problem, I would watch some good videos on YouTube about the contact position, as they have many. And if you want a great drill, you can use an impact bag. However, understand that the clubhead should lag behind the hands. And the release, insofar as you should feel it at all, is NOT a releasing of the wrists. It is a rolling over of the forearms — with the right pronating and the left supinating — while largely maintaining the hinge of the wrists. Many people, in both golf and tennis, misunderstand the difference between forearm and wrist action, and this causes them to conceptualize the matter wrongly.

Next, you and Double Eagle are correct about the swing plane. S&T puts yuo in a steeper position already; if you also use a steep, two-plane swing, you will tend to have an incorrect angle of attack. Relating to this, note that you stand too close to the ball for the shallower, one-plane swing in question. The closer you stand to the ball, the steeper your swing becomes. Moreover, when you use the one-plane swing, the club naturally comes through the hitting zone further away from your body. In other words, the one-plane swing and standing close to the ball are incompatible.

Lastly, I’ll address swing length. If you “stay connected” as per S&T doctrine and use a one-plane swing, where your left arms is in line with your shoulders at the top, your swing will naturally be shorter. So I would simply strive to cultivate the correct swing plane and let that take care of everything else.

If I have any more comments about your swing, I’ll post them subsequently. Let us know how matters progress.

Posted on June 14th, 2009 at 11:15 pm
205
Double Eagle said:

Paladin, to clarify, I don’t have a problem with William’s leg action. I was only pointing out that my arthritic knees ache looking at that much flexibility.

Posted on June 14th, 2009 at 11:22 pm
206
Paladin said:

Double Eagle, sorry if I jumped to a conclusion. But it’s probably good that it was mentioned so that Bill doesn’t get the wrong idea.

How is it that you have arthritic knees? You’re still a pretty young guy.

Posted on June 15th, 2009 at 12:39 am
207
Double Eagle said:

Years of hockey and being overweight. I tore my right ACL playing hockey 15 or so years ago. They say it’s not uncommon with those types of injuries. The subsequent tearing of more cartilage last year didn’t help. Neither knee is too bad (though the right is definitely worse), but it’s one of the many reasons it’s important for me to maintain a decent exercise plan and to keep on losing weight.

Posted on June 15th, 2009 at 12:55 am
208
Paladin said:

Bill, I should mention one more thing. It is true that you cross the line at the top; however, this isn’t a function of a swing flaw but of the length of your swing. Any player that takes a huge turn and gets the club back extremely far will cross the line at the top; this is because that position is simply where your swing plane will take you if your extend it enough. In other words, at address the club points right of the target. Then, as you take the club away from the ball, it moves away from the target until, when the club is at thigh level, it points in the opposite direction. It then starts to move upwards, causing it to points left of the target, but less so all the time until in the parallel position, where it is pointing approximately at the target. Then, if you turn and swing past parallel, it starts to point right of the target again.

Thus, this isn’t a swing flaw as long as it’s simply a function of the swing length, as long as you’re not rolling the forearms (pronation and supination) the wrong way at the top to move the club right of target (which you’re not doing). And, even this could be compensated for; three-time major winner Larry Nelson does it, for instance. He just compensates on the downswing.

To see what I mean about how a long swing naturally puts you in that position, take a look at the following videos of John Daly, Fred Couples and Phil Mickelson. And note that Couples used to cross the line even more when he was younger. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xp81Zmz5mEg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYkxYjfhrE8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYAzjlx8Y1s

Given your length of swing, it would be indicative of a swing flaw if you didn’t cross the line. That is, you’d have to lay the club off tremendously to have it pointed at the target at that point in the swing plane.

Anyway, as I said before, if you cultivate a S&T style one-plane swing, your swing will be shortened and, for whatever it’s worth, it won’t point as far right of target, if at all.

Posted on June 15th, 2009 at 6:37 am
209
William said:

Double Eagle, Paladin,
thank you both so much for replies. I\’ve read your posts over and over again, just to be sure I soaked up all the information.

Double Eagle, on that second screen cap my knee really looks to be in a horrible position. I think it\’s mostly the camera angle though. At least from my perspective it doesn\’t look that intense in real life.

As for the length of my back swing, you\’re right, I never knew I\’m doing that. That is also definitely one change towards my S/T at the beginning. When I had my first S/T-success I didn\’t take the club back further (at least so I think) than Plummer/Bennett did on the DVDs. I was probably subconsciously trying to make up for a bit of lost distance I had with the longer clubs.

At the 3-wood swing you\’re pointing out that the ball is a bit behind center. Is that a problem? My ball position always seems to be a bit behind the center line, I think I picked that up from Ron del Barrio\’s Passive Golf a long time ago – long before I started Stack and Tilt.

Paladin, it feels very good to hear that I\’m having great potential. I didn\’t know I was particularly flexible – but on the other hand I\’ve never had any problems with bones, etc. As a kid I was pretty over-weight and sometimes I think the weight I had to carry around when I was smaller was the best training for my body. Still today, I never really have to train any muscles in my legs as they seem pretty strong just from ordinary every day movements.

Ok, sorry to drift a bit off-topic, let\’s get back to the essentials, the ball position on impact. I did a couple of \”swings\” in the living room this morning trying to have the clubface lag behind the hands. That combined with a shortened more on-plane backswing felt pretty good. I felt how the clubface is much more closed on impact than before. Shots starting to right have been my biggest concern lately.

As for the wrist action, I\’ve got another question or two. Do I understand you correclty that I\’m not supposed to turn the wrists on the downswing, but rather \”push\” the right forearm to the front therefore straightening the wrists. Hope you understand how I mean that, it\’s pretty difficult to put it into words.

Again, thank you for the great advice, I\’m hoping to get to the range in the evening to try out all your tips. You can\’t believe how full of motivation I am right now.

Double Eagle, I can really relate to your last sentence about exercise and weight loss. About 5 years ago when I first played golf I was quite a lot too much on weight on me. That was one of the reasons why I quit golfing and didn\’t start again until about a year ago. In those 5 years I lost a lot of fat and gained a lot muscle mass. When I started playing golf again now, everything went so much easier.

I\’ll keep you updated, thanks again,
Bill

Posted on June 15th, 2009 at 8:02 am
210
Double Eagle said:

Paladin, good point about the swing plane. However, I’m not ready to chalk it up to the over swing yet. The first image is with Bill’s 5 iron and he clearly hasn’t over swung to the extent as with the 3-wood shot below that. In the 5 iron shot, it looks like the club head is behind his head, but the 3 wood is about level with the middle of his back. I’m not sure the slightly longer club could account for that. I need to go back and look at the video to see the face-on 5 iron to get a better sense, but taking that club only slightly past parallel like it seems shouldn’t result in the club being that far over the line.

That said, I agree that working on what you pointed out will probably resolve that anyway.

Posted on June 15th, 2009 at 9:43 am
211
Paladin said:

Bill, that’s not quite what I meant. First of all, if you stay relaxed, the clubface should square up naturally. Of course, it’s harder to be relaced when you’re working on altering the contact position. But to be precise, what I mean is that the forearms start to roll over on the downswing, with the right one pronating and the left supinating. It isn’t wrist actin, but forearm action. Again, people tend to confuse the two.

However, it may be difficult for you to conceptualize this based on a written-word description; that’s why I recommend the YouTube videos. Here is a good one on the impact position: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0vC7ZrFbP0&feature=related

And here is Nick Clearwater, a S&T instructor, talking about it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xq6B6xONedM

They describe the same thing in a slightly different way.

Posted on June 15th, 2009 at 12:02 pm
212
Paladin said:

Bill,

Let me modify what I said slightly. After thinking a bit more about what you said, I realized that I need to clarify something. If you mean that getting into the bowed left-wrist position will aid in the squaring of the clubface, you’re correct. Because it does start to shut down the face when you transition into the impact position.

Posted on June 15th, 2009 at 12:10 pm
213
Double Eagle said:

There was something else I wanted to mention about casting and ball position.

First, Bill, I forgot to address your question about ball position. If I remember correctly, Plummer and Bennett want your centers (head, chest, hips) aligned, but also aligned with the ball at address, so playing the ball well behind center is probably not a good idea, at least for a 3 wood.

Second, the point about casting. Many times, casting is a symptom, and not the problem itself. In your case, with your centers ahead of the ball, if you didn’t cast the club, you’d probably completely miss it. In the video, you’re topping it (or smothering it, really), but if you weren’t casting the club, you’d likely miss it altogether.

You can prove this to yourself by setting up with the ball a few inches behind center and making a super slow motion swing, where you can see that you’re not casting the club. The only way you can make solid contact is by shifting to the right, which is a no-no with the Stack and Tilt. As the club head approaches the ball, it gets lower and lower, makes contact with the ball and then with the turf. Two inches behind the start of the divot and the club is how high off the ground? There’s virtually no chance of a crisp shot without some kind of compensation, either a sway to the right or a cast.

Posted on June 15th, 2009 at 12:31 pm
214
hanon said:

Bill , there are many things to improve:

- Your plane is too upright -as Mike said before- thus your backswing is too long. Try to have your arm at the top in line with the shoulder , shortening your backswing

- Yor weight at the top for sure is not 60/40 maybe you are even 80/20 or more. Try less weight in the left and improve your spine angle to be more centered nos so tilted

- Your feet are too separated at adress which provoke your right leg to have and strange tilted position at the top instead of straight. Improve your feet at address

- Your are starting from the top with your arms. You should start with the hips sliding or if not straightening your left leg (crushing the can under your feet). At impact your left leg is not even straight yet

- You dont have to rush from the top. Trying letting your arm more passive and just pull a bit with the left arm and extend at the same time the right one to accelerate the club.

Posted on June 15th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
215
hanon said:

Ahh.. And don´t forget to keep the right flying wedge (right wrist bent) from start to finish. You are loosing it completely and I think it´s because you are overaccelerating from the top

Posted on June 15th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
216
William said:

hanon, thank you for the checklist and for putting effort into analysing my swing. I will certainly try and improve my swing according to these points. Some of these points I could already manage to imrpove today. My backswing is now much shorter and I think more on plane. Also I managed to keep the “flying wedge” much longer although I’m still having some problems with that. I’m either hitting into the ground very hard just after or even while making contact with the ball. Or I’m topping the ball.

But still, huge improvement already. I’m just gonna need some time to practice and kill all the swing flaws.

I know all of you have written a lot more and I’m extremly grateful for all the info, but right now I just don’t have the time to comment on everything, I hope tomorrow I’ll have more time.

Paladin, thank you very much for all the video links. I just love Phil’s swing. It also shows extremly nicely how the club lags behind the arms.

You’ll hear from me tomorrow, if I can find the time I’m gonna watch some parts of the official DVDs in bed tonight

Posted on June 15th, 2009 at 3:35 pm
217
William said:

Ok, guys, here’s a bit more detailied analysis. I spent quite some time on the range today and found out a lot of my swing today. I played 200 balls, most of them with just one club – the 7-iron.

My first and very important change was to put my feet a bit closer at address, as hanon suggested. Also I tried not to put too much weight on the left foot. Also I put the weight a bit more on the heel than on the toes. Therefore I’m able to bend my upper body a bit more and my head stays in the same position during the swing. Also now I’m able to stand a bit farther away from the ball and am therefore much more on plane with my swing. That of course also limits the length of the backswing.

I also tried limiting my huge amount of leg/knee action a bit. It might be true that it is not a swing flaw, but it certainly helps to develop other flaws. With my former huge bending of the left knee my hips actually moved up and down a bit and I couldn’t get back into the correct height at contact position. Which was also the reason why I couldn’t really keep the “flying wedge”. When I tried to straighten my left knee on the downswing there was no way I could reach the ground with the clubface without releasing the “flying wedge”.

But with my limited leg action now my head stays much more in the same postion and therefore when I contact the ball my upper body is pretty much the same as at address and not too high or too low.

Also, as hanon said, I tried beeing a bit more passive. That certainly helps. It seems to me that I tend to get a bit more / too aggressive in the swing when things aren’t working so great. Of course, that’s just the wrong way to go, but yeah, a huge part of golf is played with the mind rather than the body

It took me quite some time to figure all of that out, but my last 50 or so balls were really nice.

Double Eagle, Paladin, hanon, you guys are really good. But I also now only really learned the importance of being able to watch your own swing. The camera is definitely gonna play a rather major role in my future golf training.

Ok, now something totally differnt: How much do you guys in the US (or wherever you are) have to pay on the driving range? Where I’m currently playing it’s 1€ for 12 balls and that just feels really expensive. The club I’m gonna be joining soon offers 20 balls for 1€ for members, that’s a bit better. In Slovenia, my girlfriend’s from there, they usually have very fair all-you-can-play offers for 9€. How much do you usually pay? Just wanna know, thanks.

Posted on June 17th, 2009 at 1:12 pm
218
Double Eagle said:

William,

1€ (currently $1.38 USD) for 12 balls is pretty expensive. At my back-up driving range, I pay $8 (5.77€) for a large basket which is about 100-110 balls.

At my home course, it’s more expensive. I think it’s $10 for a basket of a similar size. But they also offer a season pass, which is about $300/year (414€), and came for free with my membership this year. With that, I can hit unlimited balls, and even though it’s only June, I’ve easily hit more than $300 worth of balls.

Posted on June 17th, 2009 at 1:46 pm
219
hanon said:

Bill, Glad to see that your swing is improving. I see in you a reflect on my experience with S&T: after some early success I try to learn it deeply and I got confused and full of thoughts.

My recommendation is that you should SIMPLIFY the swing. Try to get rid of all those thousand of thoughts and checkpoints you should verify and just go back to BASICS. Don´t overdo some of the details of S&T, overdoing is a swingkiller. My thoughts now are:

1- Set-up as stated in S&T (weight a bit in the left 55/45)
2- Rotate you left shoulder down in the backswing
3- Rotate your left shoulder up in the downswing around your fixed spine and head. I just focus in moving my shoulder: the rest parts responses to the shoulder movement.

Posted on June 17th, 2009 at 4:43 pm
220
Paladin said:

Bill,

That is very expensive for balls, but I would have guessed that. Things tend to be very pricey in Europe; that’s why it’s so funny when people want the U.S. to be more like that continent. They probably have a tax on the balls.

Around here a large bucket is about $11, but they have an early-bird special (before 12 PM) where you can get a large for $6).

Posted on June 17th, 2009 at 7:53 pm
221
William said:

Ok, thanks for the prices.

There’s 19% sales tax on the balls, yeah. There’s a few advantages here in Europe (very cheap but good education for example), but it’s only a matter of time until I’m leaving for good…

Posted on June 18th, 2009 at 8:28 am
222
Paladin said:

Bill,

As much as I hate to inject politics into our golf discussion, I will take issue with the characterization of education in Europe as cheap and good. Something only becomes cheaper if you can lower the cost of creating it, not simply because its cost is distributed differently. In Europe, the taxpayers may be paying a much higher percentage of education costs through the government, but I don’t know that education itself is actually cheaper.

This is an important point because big government programs often blind people to the true cost of services. In the U.S., for instance, people have withholding tax rended from their paychecks. Because of this, they never see the money in the first place and thus don’t react the same way they would if you actually put it in their pockets, then took if from them and said that it would be used to finance so-and-so. This is the case with so many taxes, particularly the “hidden” ones. And it’s never healthy to divorce consumers from the cost of what they consume.

As for education being good, I cannot consider any politically-correct paradigm as so. I will cede, however, that in terms of learning the basics, Europe is doing a better job than we are. Of course, they don’t have the kind of underclass we do, either.

Posted on June 20th, 2009 at 2:41 pm
223
Double Eagle said:

I do enjoy a vigorous political discussion, but I think for maximum benefit as a Stack and Tilt reference, we should keep the discussion focused there. I’ve been working on setting up a Facebook fan page and we can always use the discussion functionality there to have interesting side discussions.

Posted on June 20th, 2009 at 3:39 pm
224
Paladin said:

Double Eagle,

Don\’t you know that these things are interrelated? S&T is a conservative (as in traditional) swing method. ;o)

Posted on June 20th, 2009 at 6:03 pm
225
Double Eagle said:

And so am I, in all senses.

Posted on June 20th, 2009 at 6:16 pm
226
Paladin said:

I guess you’re saying that the only place you miss left is the golf course.

Posted on June 22nd, 2009 at 12:52 pm
227
No Bogies said:

Okay, I’ve been catching up on all the posts some great stuff here! Paladin and Double Eagle I think you’ve really helped. As I mentioned all the way back on post #177 I’ve committed to S&T but having trouble with the woods. Since then I have purchased the DVD’s and watche 1-3. Had a horrible round 5W, 3W qnd driver after watching them. But now, I’m good up to a 5W some improvment with a 3W and horrific with the driver. But, a light bulb went off after reading Paladin’s post #197. I was over doing it and putting way too much weight on my left side during the back swing. And since I think more during a driver swing this was even worse for the driver. Good stuff guys. I am heading to the range tonight to work on my driver some more as I am playing in a charity outing tomorrow. I actually have three drivers in my bag and I’m going with whichever one works best tonight at the range.

One quesiton for you guys though. I seem to hit it better when I swing harder. Not sure what I am doing. Maybe I’m thinking about it less or something. Any ideas?

Thanks

Posted on June 23rd, 2009 at 3:46 pm
228
Double Eagle said:

No Bogies,

I’ll defer to the others about hitting hard, but I’ll give you my theory. The Stack and Tilt relies on an aggressive, rotary turning motion, because you sort of create a “fixed” axis by keeping stacked. It’s critical to get those hips leveled on the down swing. Swinging hard makes that easier because your upper and lower body have to work together and they have to work quickly.

I’m not saying that you can’t swing easy and still have success with the swing, but rotary swings (like Jim Hardy’s one plane swing) work better with a hard swing because of that rotary nature.

Just make sure that when you think of swinging hard, you’re not getting tense and rigid because that’s the kiss of death for any golf swing. Think aggressive turn and straightening that left leg.

Posted on June 23rd, 2009 at 4:21 pm
229
Paladin said:

No Bogies,

I would concur with what you said about “thinking about it less.” When you swing hard, it can make you more natural. Remember that when you start getting very technical and try to orchestrate a swing consciously, everything slows down. You can start to become more robotic and deliberate (paralysis by analysis). Thus, if such a physical manifestation is associated with too much conscious thought, it follows that doing the opposite would be associated with less.

This isn’t to say that hitting hard is a long-term panacea, but it certainly may help tame those excessive thoughts.

Posted on June 26th, 2009 at 3:37 pm
230
No Bogies said:

Thanks, Guys.

Played in a tournament on Wednesday and since it was a scramble hit driver on all the non-par 3 holes. Hit the first three or so okay but went horribly south after that. Irons were very solid. Any specific tips on hitting the driver using S & T?

Posted on June 26th, 2009 at 4:43 pm
231
Paladin said:

No Bogies,

Without seeing you hit the driver, I can only offer generic advice. So I’ll say that I don’t like the idea of hitting the driver with a descending blow, which is what I believe B&P prescribe even with that club. I say this because studies have shown that you get considerably more distance with an angle of attack of plus four to plus six degrees (an ascending blow). Thus, if you are hitting down on the ball with the driver, I think you simply need to become acquainted with the feeling of striking the ball on the upswing. (If the ball isn’t far forward enough, you also may need to move it forward and tee it up higher.)

One way to understand this feeling, I believe, is to liken the swing to tossing a ball underhand with your right hand. When hitting a shot off the fairway, it’s much like releasing the ball earlier so that it is thrown toward the ground, albeit at a fairly shallow angle. But the driver feeling is more like releasing the ball later, when your hand is moving upwards, a bit after the bottom of the arc. A simpler way to put it is that hitting a shot off the fairway is like tossing a ball low and basically rolling it, while hitting the driver is like tossing it up in the air a bit. Yet another way to put it is that with the driver, you might want to feel like you’re trying to hit the ball quite high.

Obviously, this is a result-oriented way to approach the problem; it’s always best to address things this way whenever possible.

Posted on June 28th, 2009 at 12:33 am
232
Paladin said:

I forgot to mention something about hitting the driver. Remember that the longer the club, the further you stand from the ball (obvious) and the further your hands will be from your body. You also stand up a bit straighter. This is because with the one-plane swing, the arms and shoulders work on the same plane. And this means that the shoulders have to maintain the same relationship to the ball no matter where the ball is (although, these changes apply with the two-plane swing as well).

Posted on June 28th, 2009 at 11:08 am
233
Jorell Rohan said:

No no no don’t tee it up higher or forward. You’ll get too much loft and lose distance with S+T.

Posted on July 21st, 2009 at 1:47 am
234
Jorell Rohan said:

Here is something I posted on another site, maybe it will help a little.

Stack and Tilt works great! BUT, it has it’s secrets… It has been my natural swing since the start. This is my first year of taking golf seriously and getting out to play more than once or twice a season. Now I’m out 3 to 4 times a week on the range hitting 200 balls or playing rounds. It is possible to get good distance with a driver. I can regularly drive over 300 yards with S+T. I have noticed the “on and off” days everyone keeps talking about…and after 2 or 3 weeks my swing did get messed up a little just like everyone describes. So I started thinking…why would my swing be awesome and then for no reason start losing power, and hitting crap shots…? I took video upon video and anylized my good swings from my bad swings and what I found is that when I first started getting out this year I was really loading up well, loading the shaft and driving my hips forward…producing a powerful swing with a lot of consistancy. A great S+T. As this season has gone on, I’ve gotten more flexible from the S+T (Left arm, back, mid section). That’s where the problem lies for most people that they don’t notice… My back swing was getting farther and farther back, my wrists were cocking further, my left knee was dropping farther, and because of all this my weight wasn’t driving forward on impact. I, in a sence, got so flexible I couldn’t properly load my club, and the farther I went back looking for the powerful “coiled” feeling I found at the begining of the season, the more my timing and swing angle got out of hand. So, looking back for all of you other S+T’ers out there, make sure you check your angles (wrist cock and left knee flex especially), and don’t let your increased flexibility ruin your great new swing. Just slow it down and concentrate on driving forward and opening your hips. If not you’ll probably wind up driving your body more up, than up and forward…zapping your power and leading to those “on and off” days. One more thing I’ve found that is suppose to be a big no no is that S+T works a lot better if you keep your arms straight at address, rather than letting them hang down naturaly. Think of yourself as a giant pendulum. Keep the shaft and your arms on a 45 degree plane all the way through your back swing. It kind of feels like swinging a bat but it feels natural and easy because of the left shoulder dip and forward lean. Keep your back at a 45 and your club plane at a 45 degree angle and you’ll drive like a champ, a little steeper for irons. (I also use a bat style grip, not over laping my pinkies at all) This helps keep the club face square and leads to consistancy. If you are having problems with contact, try bringing the club back shallower (like a bat) on your back swing. DON’T FORGET TO DRIVE YOUR HIPS FORWARD/UP AND OPEN THEM UP. Also remember on your back swing your knee should point to the ball as it flexes, and your right knee should straighten. Don’t over flex your left or you’ll come in way too steep and take a divit. As you get more flexible, you’ll have to think about these things and check yourself. One more thing, tee your ball up so that the top of the driver head is lined up about 3/4 up the ball, and in the middle of your stance. Any higher or forward and you’ll lose distance and power. Throw all of that ball forward in your stance and tee up higher crap out the window for this swing style or you’ll suffer and be stroking your 5wd (off the carpet) just as far as your driver. Good luck.

Jorell
If you have any questions or want to see more video feel free to contact me at JorellR40@gmail.com

*search for “Jorell’s Stack and Tilt” on You Tube if you want to see a good example of when I was starting to lose my shot. You’ll see the over cocked wrists, and no hip thrust forward. But it will give you a general idea of where to start. (Keep in mind I forgot my cleats that day, and your left foot shouldn’t turn as much as mine in the video.)

Posted on July 21st, 2009 at 1:48 am
235
Jorell Rohan said:

This guy has good info.

http://www.oneplanegolfswing.com/

Posted on July 21st, 2009 at 1:58 am
236
Paladin said:

Jorell,

I watched your videos. You certainly seem to have a lot of talent. As for excessive flexibility, that’s a problem I wish I had!

Just so you know, your address position, with your arms not hanging but straight, is the Moe Norman, Natural Golf address position. I’m sure you arrived at it yourself, but check out Norman and you’ll see what I mean. (By the way, I do lend the theory behind this position a lot of credence.)

However, you’re wrong about the ball position. There isn’t a S&T pro alive who has the ball in the middle of his stance with the driver.

Posted on July 21st, 2009 at 9:04 pm
237
No Bogies said:

Help!

As posted previously,I’ve had some good success with S&T after committing to it this season. Much better consistency with my irons. I used to lose long irons right and had hard left pulls with my short irons. Now I rarely lose irons right an never pull them. Also my fat shots are well, less fat.

However, and here is where I need help, my last two rounds have been dreadful off the tee. I’ve struggled using S&T with the driver but now can’t even seem to hit 3W or 5W! Everything is a low pull hook or I pop it up (trying to adjust for the low pull hook I suspect). Any ideas on what the heck I’ve screwed up?

I’m terrible at figuring out my own swing but am going to try and take some video this weekend to see if I notice anything.

Your help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Posted on August 14th, 2009 at 10:25 am
238
paul_and_tilt said:

hi guys!it’s my first post here. i’ve had the same problem of no bogies.it’s my first week with the s&t and i can say i’ve never hit my irons as crisp as how can right now. occasionally i do shank it, probably when i hurry up my swing or something, but i can easily correct them. my real problem is my driver. i hit low pulls, ballooning pulls/draws with no distances at all.

Posted on August 24th, 2009 at 8:20 am
239
hanon said:

The key for S&T is that it is a swing powered more by the right side than the left side. From the top you have to feel that your right arm (for righties) is conciously straightening to accelerate the club, while rotating your right shoulder down toward the ball.

Those who try S&T just by using their left side are advocated to disater IMHO. S&T is a swing derived from The golfing Machine. It is classified under those types called “punch shot”. All it is said with this last sentence. I don´t know why this idea is not yet so known in the S&T community. P&B don´t explain it well: they just say that you have to release your 4th and 1st accumulators from the top. But people is not used to this terminology. Releasing the 1st accumulator is just done by powering the swing with your right arm. Hope this help.

Posted on September 9th, 2009 at 12:34 pm
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Coleman Hatfield said:

As my cardiologist says due to my thoracic aortic aneurysm, I am a 70 year old male, I should give up golf because of the undue pressure in my chest. In that I hate to give up golf, I am going to attempt to use a swing that involves very little if any twist of my body.
Perhaps using mostly my arms and breaking my wrist very early in the back swing. Any thoughts that you have.

Will probably have to have open heart surgery for aorta and valve replacement in the future.

Posted on September 22nd, 2009 at 5:00 pm
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Double Eagle said:

Coleman, I’m sorry to hear about your heart troubles. Not only because it’s a life and death matter, but I’m sad to hear that it’s forcing you to possibly give up the game.

The Stack and Tilt definitely isn’t what you want because that’s a very rotational swing. I’m not sure what to recommend. First and foremost, I recommend working with your doctor to try and find a compromise that doesn’t put your life in jeopardy. If he thinks it’s safe, then an arms-only swing might work for you. You would lose distance, but at least you’d be able to continue playing.

Best of luck trying to work something out and hopefully if you do have heart surgery in the future, it will allow you to play again.

Posted on September 22nd, 2009 at 5:14 pm
242
Mitchellray said:

Hello,
Congradulations, you may have hit upon the real basis underlying the ‘Stack and Tilt’ methodology.
First, I would like to suggest that MacKenzie, in the images, does not appear to be executing the Stack and Tilt methods well. There are many inconsistencies with the abc’s of it.
Second, Tiger would appear to exhibit more of the S&T’s characteristics than MacKenzie.
Here’s where you may have done it! Tiger’s hip tilt from rear to front at address is akin to the position (orientation) that S&T wants you to achieve in the backswing, i.e. the stacked hip position.
If one will try to tilt the hips in that manner at address and prior to initiating the backswing, it may be found that a more fluid hip shift, first rear, and then forward on the downswing will be forthcoming.
This yields a very similar feel to the S&T’s relatively weight forward positions through and after impact, but with more inertia. Also, since S&T has one sliding the hips forward on the downswing, it is similar to the hip shift associated with the transfer of weight from rear to front leg in more traditional schools of execution theory. The stated difference is that S&T has one sliding the hip past the front post, whereas traditionally, the hip is to hit the invisible wall and rotate to clear the path (interpretaion summary).
As a related comment, Tiger can easily be seen to regularly swing ‘out of his socks’ as he comes through impact into the follow through. This is, I believe, exactly what Stack and Tilt asks you to do by stretching past impact.

Posted on November 27th, 2009 at 2:19 pm
243
Tom Duggan said:

I enjoyed your articles very much. One question. I am a high hanicap golfer (15), 59yrs old who plays once a week. Do you think the stack and tilt swing would be good for me to switch too.

Thanks, Tom

Posted on June 20th, 2010 at 11:00 pm
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Double Eagle said:

Tom,

Based on three years worth of feedback from a lot of people, I’d have to say yes. If you commit to it and actually spend some time working on developing the fundamentals, I see no reason why you wouldn’t see success with it.

Best of luck!

Posted on June 20th, 2010 at 11:35 pm
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Jake said:

Hello All,

I have been reading the posts here and got the DVDs last week. After watching them, I headed out to the range to try it out. When I first started golfing, I played for the first 5 years or so without any lessons. The firs lesson I took, the instructor told me I was straightening my right leg on the back swing and it looked like I had a reverse pivot. This felt natural to me, but I took his advise and started using it. I have had moderate success with it, but it never stuck. I would have good days and really really bad days. When I heard of the stack and tilt, I figured I would give it a try because it was what felt natural to me.

So I went out yesterday to hit some balls. I hit some really nice shots and some not so nice ones. I have to say that for the most part my contact definately improved with the irons. I was even drawing some balls with a 7 iron and I didn’t slice it (a big problem of mine). However, I was pushing and pulling some shots too. I have to agree with most of you, the drive and woods aren’t really responding to the ST swing. I found that if I hover the clubhead at address, it helped some. I think I just have to keep at it and pratice practice pratice.

Overall, I am impressed witht he ST swing.

Posted on July 12th, 2010 at 10:09 am
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Stack and Kill it said:

Especially if you are somewhat strong the S&T is for you! I have been playing for 6 years and shoot in the high 70′s. As everyone above has mentioned they are on an eternal quest to “pure” their irons. My only thought when I play is to have my hands as far ahead of the ball as possible. While this may seem like it would smother the ball, the steep angle from S&T has me hitting high draws all day. My friends always comment on the size of my divots, and I say “I didn’t know you were the superintendent”. One common flaw with S&T is thinking a short backswing needs to be fast. Not true. Good luck

Posted on July 14th, 2010 at 3:31 pm
247
Jake said:

I have a question about the backswing on the ST. I have taken some video of my swing and it seems that the club is laid off at the top and that my left knee is pointing more towards my right foot than at the ball. I think this is because I am not straightening my right leg completely, there is still a slight bend in it. I think the club is laid off at the top because I am taking too long of a backswing. The club isn’t parallel with the ground, but it is close.

So…how long should the backswing be and should my right leg be completely straight so my left knee doesn’t point at my right foot?

Thanks

Posted on July 15th, 2010 at 12:52 pm
248
Jake said:

Forgot one more thing…Once the backswing is complete, what starts the down swing? Are the hips sliding laterally toward the target? Are the rotating back to square and then sliding laterally and up (extending the spine)? On my video, by the time I make contact with the ball, my lower body has shifted so much to the right that the ball is almost at my right arm pit and my right knee has bent in so much that it is actually inside of the golf ball (RT handed golfer). This seems like too much of a lateral shift to start the downswing.

Posted on July 15th, 2010 at 12:58 pm
249
sunday said:

I started 3 weeks ago with the stack and tilt swing….
I understand that some people are sceptic about the concept, and it is not for everyone. My problem was hitting the ball fat and preferred having the ball in the semi rough over the fairway, so i could get the club underneath it.
Not anymore !

Now I love tight lighs, prefer the fairway, lowered my handicap from 9 to 7,4 (in three weeks!)and more importantly, enjoy the game again. Going forward in golf is great, and the sound and feel of compressing the ball much better is just great!

I am sold !

Posted on August 14th, 2010 at 7:27 pm
250
Thomas Jensen said:

Maybe it’s been adressed before, but in your ‘top of the swing’ picture, you draw a line showing that Tigers centre of the shoulders is above his right hip. As I see it, that line is simply drawn incorrectly. It’s way left of the actual centre, with that corrected there really isn’t much difference between the two positions except that Tiger has a fuller shoulder turn.

Rgds

Posted on August 18th, 2010 at 8:30 am