Is the Stack and Tilt Losing Steam?

Since 2007, when Golf Digest first published its feature on the new-fangled swing, Stack and Tilt fever has swept the internet.  At the time, Aaron Baddeley was the poster boy for the swing on Tour.  Over time, stars like Mike Weir adopted the swing, as well.

A couple of weeks back, I heard that Baddeley had given up on the swing and gone back to his old coach Dale Lynch.  Then, I was somewhat shocked to read that Mike Weir did the same, returning to coach Mike Wilson.

Chris Henry at Eagle Par Birdie weighed in on the situation, making the point that pros change swings all the time and that this is really getting attention because the swing has been controversial since day one.  Both of these things are true, but I’m still surprised.

Two things echoed through my mind as I read about Baddeley and Weir changing swings again.

First, I did a post a while back that crunched the stats for both Baddeley and Weir and a few other Stack and Tilters over the last several years.  I believe I was able to show that both players had lowered their scoring averages and increased their earnings since adopting the swing, though in some categories, they had not regained previous high points, for instance, Mike Weir in the year he won the Masters.

Second, since I wrote my first article about the Stack and Tilt, I have read literally dozens if not hundreds of comments and e-mails from readers that have had moderate to great success with the swing.  Don’t believe me?  Look at the posts in the Stack and Tilt category and read through the comments.  If my math is correct, I count exactly 300 comments on those posts.  A good chunk of those are mine, responding to other comments, but that’s still a lot of discussion.

Search the internet for Stack and Tilt and look at the discussion forums and other blogs.  I know that Stack and Tilt accounts for a good chunk of my visitors so I assume other bloggers and websites are experiencing the same thing.

So, I’m left wondering why Baddeley and Weir decided to revert.  I think Chris is right that pros change swings and coaches all the time.  That’s a big part of it.  At that level, stats are kind of secondary to wins and earnings.  If Mike Weir feels like he’s not on his way to a year like he had in 2003, then logic dictates that he’s probably going to change things up periodically until he finds that spot again.  Same for Baddeley.

That begs the question, then:  if players at the top feel like this swing is not going to help them get there, then why the huge popularity among the amateur ranks?

The only answer I have is that the Stack and Tilt is a good swing for amateurs to adopt that has the benefit of wiping out some of the major flaws that amateurs struggle with, proper weight transfer being one of them.  With a little study, the swing is fairly easy to adopt and players quickly begin to strike the ball better.  Better contact and better ball compression immediately gives players more distance and accuracy, even if they don’t increase their swing speeds.

What may be happening is, the swing doesn’t offer as much to top players who don’t struggle with things like weight transfer like the rest of us do.  Perhaps it doesn’t offer the same level of distance or precision control that top players need.  I’m not sure about that, though, as the stats for the Stack and Tilt players don’t really bear that hypothesis out.

But that brings me to another point:  confidence.  If a top player doesn’t feel like he has as much control, then he doesn’t.  Even if he does, if you follow me.

As reported in the Naples News article I linked above:

Baddeley, who said before the Arnold Palmer Invitational at Bay Hill that he was going back to Lynch, won twice on the PGA Tour and once in Australia over the past three years. But his statistics had slid this season.

“I haven’t quite seen the results I wanted,” Baddeley told FoxSports.com. “The past year has been a little inconsistent. I thought I was making good progress but there were a couple of things in the swing that weren’t clicking, so I went and saw Dale for a second opinion.”

To me, that’s a confidence issue.  Baddeley said that a couple of things weren’t clicking.  It sounds more like a couple of things stopped clicking, because they clicked enough previously for him to have won twice  on the PGA Tour.

It’s like anything else in golf:  once confidence in something is lost, it’s very difficult to get it back.  Some players go through dozens of putters, looking for one that feels right.  They have bad streaks and change putters just because they’ve lost confidence.  They get to the point where they would putt with a tree branch if they felt like they were making putts with it.  And players change swings for the exact same reason.  I’ve done it myself, and I don’t have millions riding on my golf swing.

I kind of wonder if this will affect the adoption of the swing by the millions of amateur players out there.  And not just because I run ads for the swing DVDs.  I assure you, that’s the last thing on my mind.  I’m just interested in learning about the golf swing and seeing others raise the level of their games.  If this swing wasn’t adopted by a handful of Tour pros and subsequently featured in Golf Digest, it’s doubtful that knowledge of it would have extended beyond the most hardcore students of the golf swing.

Will players stick with it, and others give it a first try, knowing that the pros are moving on?  I read a comment on another blog once (and I can’t remember which one) where someone said something to the effect that when Tiger Woods adopts the swing, then it’s worth thinking about.  There’s some truth in that.  When one of the perennial winners thinks highly enough of the swing to switch, that’s saying something.  Everyone else is just trying out new things to find some old magic.

So, what do you think?  I know that dozens of you have had success with the swing because you’ve told me.  It stands to reason that there are hundreds or thousands more that never even bothered to comment about it, and that’s just here in my little corner of the internet.  Why is it losing steam in the pro ranks?  Do you think it will continue to be popular among the amateur ranks?  Or will it die out, only to be remembered years from now as another swing fad?

Comments

  1. I honestly see Stack and Tilt being known as a fad. Any innovation in swing theory or equipment needs to be adopted and supported by those who make their livelihood playing golf. So I totally agree that a top player like Tiger or Phil need to adopt and use a new swing method and show a level of success with the swing.

    Being Canadian I follow Mike Weir and Stephen Ames. I have watched Mike get into contention on Friday or Saturday and not perform well on Sundays over the past few years. Hard to say the Stack and Tilt is to blame but I can see why a player will change. They have already experienced success with their old swing. They developed it to suit their style and it got them on the tour to begin with and in Mike’s case won a Major.

    Otherwise someone will need to win consistently with the Stack and Tilt to avoid becoming a fad. I just don’t see Joe Q Public Golfer adopting a swing method that does not show sustain success with many players or the Marquee players.

  2. Mark Ramos says:

    weight transfer has been one of my biggest issues with my swing so I totally know what you mean.

  3. Double Eagle says:

    TP, I agree with that analysis and prediction. But I can’t help but go back to the comments I’ve gotten from people that have taken 6 strokes off their handicaps, shot all-time low rounds, or gotten a new measure of consistency. And given the lack of Stack and Tilt teaching (though, there’s probably more now), they largely did it by themselves with the help of some magazine articles and DVDs. And also consider that many of those people have struggled, sometimes for decades, with the time-tested conventional swing.

    Could it be that the conventional swing is too difficult to go at it alone and that the Stack and Tilt is just easier to learn for a self-taught player? I really don’t have a definitive answer, but the success in the amateur ranks versus the lack of acceptance in the pro ranks doesn’t totally add up for me.

    I agree with you that the swing may decline because without the pros doing it or the magazines writing about it, there will be legions of players out there that will never even hear of it or never even consider trying it unless they happen to know someone who’s had success with it or they happen to be the experimental type.

  4. I remember Natural Golf about 10 years ago. I know of players that adopted that method and swore by its teaching. They were very devout to the religion/cult of Natural Golf and how it improved their games. However the only pro I remember using the swing was Sandy Lyle and I cannot recall if he had success on the Tours after adopting/promoting the Natural Golf swing. I would never doubt the success people have had however the marketing machine is constantly moving. For example equipment product line cycles last about 18 months depending on the company. In my opinion a swing fad will last longer but lasting more than 5 years…hard to predict…but looking back a history I believe it will become a fad.

  5. Double Eagle says:

    I think you quite possibly might be right. It’ll probably never completely fade away (especially since some compelling comparisons have been made between the Stack and Tilt and the swings of some of the all-time greats) but it might go the way of Natural Golf and the rest. But there’s probably always going to be someone somewhere swearing by it, and based on the results I’m hearing about, it’s probably somewhat warranted. I certainly don’t envision a higher level of acceptance on Tour though. It’ll be interesting to see where it’s at in 5 or 10 years.

  6. Follower1964 says:

    Here’s a comment from a duffer…I tried the Stack & Tilt last year and had some immediate success improving my game. I tried this year going back to a more conventional swing and have been all over the place, power loss, loss of accuracy. Even on the driving range I wasn’t sure which end was up. So I decided recently to go back to the Stack & Tilt basics, looked back at old instructionals including on-line. After one practice session and one round of golf, the improvement was significant: my shots are longer, straighter, etc. I think the thing with PGA tour players is they are highly engineered athletes, they practice all the time, they have coaches evaluating everthing they do. The golf swing is a pretty complicated thing so just because Arnold Palmer, Jack Nicklaus, or Tiger Woods, can do it doesn’t mean I can do it. Besides, those three all have very different swings compared to each other! If you want to have a more conventional swing, whose advice are you going to take? One thing I like about the Stack & Tilt is, of the prominent advocates, they are all saying the same thing and giving the same instruction.

  7. Spinny says:

    I think you’re on to something with the “easier to get it on your own” idea. I won’t belabor how I ran across this here, I posted the details on another thread here; suffice to say I tried what is essentially this technique on my own initiative, made up on the spot, in an attempt to quiet my body and hit more consistently. Only after my golfing partner told me the name of what I was trying did I know it had one or that others were doing it.

    Also in summary: the few holes I tried this on yesterday saw me making immediate and notable improvement in ball striking.

    Maybe this is something akin to “Golf Swing for Dummies,” where duffers like moi with hopeless and hapless swings can turn for some of that coveted consistency, rather than a path to glory and success and fame on the pro circuit. All I know is I can hardly wait to get back out there and try some more of this, and it’s dead easy to adopt!

  8. Paladin says:

    I have to tell you, there’s no question in my mind that S&T is the correct way to hit the ball. So, how do I explain the pros deciding to dispense with it? Paralysis by analysis.

    I used to be a professional athlete (not in golf), and I know a bit about how people can perform at a high level. And my theory is that most of these pros just get far too technical. What I mean is, you can’t achieve consistency unless you “let it happen,” as they say in the Inner Game books. This means that once you learn the technique, you have to start playing instinctively. If you don’t, you’ll never be truly consistent.

    I think the problem that the pros have is that they go out to the range, start pulling or pushing a bit, and then start thinking technically. They think about what in their technique is causing the “problem” and what they have to do technically to remedy it, instead of playing based on feel. The latter would mean that if you were pushing it, you would just aim further left (seriously) and let your body do the rest. This is how I operated when I owned my swing about a year and a half ago.

    My point is that nothing, not even S&T, will yield consistent results if the player is ever and always thinking technically. And I say this as someone who not only played a sport at a very high level at one time but also taught it for many years.

    By the way, I’ll mention that a good example of not falling victim to paralysis by analysis is Bruce Lietzske (sp?). I remember that years ago, when he was just a part-time tour player but played very well when he did play, Greg Norman and perhaps others were talking about how talented he must be to be able to pull that off. He responded to this in an interview and said (I’m paraphrasing), “I don’t think I’m unusually talented. It’s just that I think that once you have a good swing, you just go with it.” He was saying in so many words that he had a grooved swing and he trusted it; he played based on feel.

    But, yes, S&T is losing steam. However, that doesn’t mean it’s not the correct way to play. It just means there will be less competition for me. ;o)

  9. Double Eagle says:

    Paladin, you make a great point about feel and about getting wrapped up in the technical aspects of the swing. In decades gone by, the best players didn’t have swing analysis and that sort of thing. They worked hard and played a lot and developed the feel to be able to do whatever they wanted.

    I’ve been guilty of getting too technical in the past. Now, I’m trying to just work really hard on grooving solid fundamentals so that I can begin to rely more on feel and not geometry.

  10. Duke Nukem says:

    This is the kind of “fair & balanced” discussion I’ve been looking for!!! (Too bad politics can’t be like this) ….I suffer from the swing flaw this system is supposed to help: To far inside, hanging back, resulting in big blocks or snap hooks. I play to a 6 and would love to drop 2 shots a round. I ordered the DVD set and will give it a whirl.

  11. Spinny says:

    Here’s a request for some unbiased input: do you think buying the DVD set is really necessary? I understand, anything to support people trying to make a living, but sometimes you get a DVD and it’s really a re-hash of what you already know or can read online. The S&T, at least how I’m seeing it, is really extremely simple. Does learning it justify buying and sitting through several DVDs’ worth of material? It sort of feels like over-complicating things, which is what seems to cause swing flaw problems in the first place!

  12. Double Eagle says:

    An awful lot of people have had a lot of success without the DVDs. It probably just comes down to whether you feel like more refinement is something you need. There’s more detail in there but a lot of it isn’t critical detail as much as extra understanding about the swing and why it works and all that.

  13. Spinny says:

    Thanks for the input. Maybe I’m just a cheap bastard but they seemed awfully pricey when I checked them out. It doesn’t help that I feel like I’m pretty much self-taught thus far as it is. I’m all for picking up a couple of refinements I might not know about, but there are a lot of DVDs involved for just a couple of tweaks. I still have PGA and PurePoint DVDs I haven’t had time to watch yet.

  14. Duke Nukem says:

    Point well taken Spinny: I’ve not found the information online to be as detailed and intricate to my tastes, hence the acquiring of the DVD’s. Ohhhh that an accurate, repeatable golf swing was easier to attain. The number of Bruce Leitzke’s who can walk onto a tournament and NEVER hit a practice ball are infinitesimally small. Therefore we engage in constant tinkering to reach an ideal that will always be just out of reach – yet try we must.

  15. Mark says:

    I find myself scouring the net today looking for answers…
    Since the golf season started (in Michigan), I have been using the stack and tilt exclusively. Until this past weekend. It was as if my brain kept telling my body that it can’t make the stack and tilt swing – all of a sudden (for the past three rounds, it’s been shaky).

    I’ve gone from preaching how great the S&T is to wondering if I’ll ever feel comfortable playing golf using the S&T.

    For years I have obsessed about finding “the swing”. I honestly thought the S&T was it. At 40, I feel that the “old dog new trick” scenerio seems to hold some truth.

    Yesterday, in the middle of my round, I went back to my strong grip – turn back and turn through method. I played ok; but I’m frustrated that I had to switch… and worse, find myself obsessing about my golf swing.

    Anyone else had the S&T desert them?

  16. Spinny says:

    At 48, I’m fervently hoping an old dog CAN learn new tricks. I need all the help I can get!

    I’m not even sure what I’m doing can be called “Stack & Tilt,” to tell truth. I don’t know that I’m noticeably “tilting” my spine towards the target (the dreaded reverse pivot that has the purists crying “foul!”). Mark, your description of your “turn back and turn through method” has me curious: could you elaborate?

    In my case I’m keeping my weight “stacked” over my leading foot, but also keeping my spine straight (when viewed from behind), and taking as full a shoulder turn as my level of flexibility will allow, using my spine as an axis (as in the “Simp. On the down swing I consciously allow my leading hand to draw the club inside a bit so my final path isn’t out-to-in quite so much. I think I actually take a very small tilt AWAY from the target as I uncoil, but I’m not positive of that. If I swing too fast I get a slice, and if I don’t take enough of a shoulder turn I get a pull hook.

    I do know that in my case the simple expedient of keeping my weight “stacked” on the lead foot has mitigated the vast majority of my swing flaws, and has improved my ball striking (both distance and consistency) tremendously. After the 18 holes on Friday I played nine yesterday and did quite well. I had one “blow up” hole (thanks to that snap hook I mentioned above) which was the only thing that kept me out of the 40s for the round. I got two pars, that being the first time I’ve ever gotten more than one in a round of nine. One of those pars was the #1 handicap hole, and it was totally due to having lots of distance from the drive and second shot giving me a nice up-n-down to finish.

    Far from feeling deserted, I feel like I’m just getting revved up!

  17. Spinny says:

    Note that I blundered typing that (got a phone call in mid stream, messed me up). For the part that reads: “(as in the “Simp” it should have read, “(as in the “Simple Golf Swing” advertised by David Nevogt).”

  18. Paladin says:

    Spinny,

    It’s easy to fall victim to a misconception with respect to the “tilt.” This is largely because B&P use exaggerated illustrations to hopefully give people the idea of how the swing feels (it’s a mistake). In reality, though, no one gets into those positions, and trying to leads to disaster. And if you watch the pros who use stack and tilt, there is no perceptible tilt toward the target.

  19. Double Eagle says:

    I initially thought the tilt was toward the target, as well. This is one misconception that the DVDs clear up rather nicely. The tilt is to the left, but not in relation to address, which, of course, would be toward the target for a right-hander. The tilt is to the left in relation to the body as it has turned. At the top of the swing, the shoulders and hips have turned well to the right. The left-tilt is in relation to that.

  20. Spinny says:

    Interesting. So the bulk of the nay-sayers are possibly responding to that same misconception. I seem to recall S&T being decried as a reverse pivot more than once, anyway.

    Now I’m getting quizzed by some members of my league. This heresy has the potential to spread further.

  21. rebuilder says:

    I am a 58 yr old golfer who once played to an 8 handicap but has probably played 20 rounds of golf in the last 20 years. When I go golfing now, it is for socialization and to “Touch the grass”. Having learned the traditional swing (Sam Snead, Gary |Palyer influences) and not playing much anymore, I struggle constantly with consistent ball striking (direction, pure striking) I have been working on the stack and tilt on the range and see much more consistency in my ball striking. I have a month to get it refined before heading out on a 5 day-4 course oddysey in July. I think it will give me much more consistency. One of the keys I am finding is that you MUST stay centered over the ball.

  22. Spinny says:

    “One of the keys I am finding is that you MUST stay centered over the ball.”

    I endorse that requirement. I hit two fat shots yesterday (over nine holes that’s a pretty good average) and in both cases I let my “center” fall off behind the ball. I’m finding that on an uphill lie it’s very difficult not to let gravity pull my center back downhill. I still don’t have an answer to that, especially since you’re supposed to lean back to get shoulders parallel to the ground. It’s a mystery to me how to manage both.

  23. Paladin says:

    Spinny,

    Keeping your centers over the ball is no an absolute. For instance, you don’t do it with the driver, and when you watch Aaron Baddeley hitting a five iron, you’ll see that the ball was just ahead of his centers (B&P pointed this out when using him as a model). The critical thing is that you don’t move them BACK from where they begin, that you keep your head still. It is this (not moving off the ball) that makes ball-striking far easier. This is because moving the head is tantamount to moving the ball. It greatly complicates the timing.

  24. Spinny says:

    Good point, Paladin. I’m mis-representing the ball as the center of focus, clearly. I play my 3 wood well forward of center, as well, and of course I’m not centered on it in that case, eh? ;-)

    I definitely need work on this technique. Played another round of nine holes yesterday, with very good ball striking (except when I lost focus and hence my center) but some real accuracy issues. My expectations ran high, and thus so did my over-swinging quotient, which resulted in some very ugly pulls and slices. With the greatly increased distance thrown into the mix, I was in trouble a few times. I also need more short game work. Inside 100 I no longer have an inkling of how far I’m going to hit my wedges, all of them go much farther than I’m used to and now I’m just guessing. Actually, inside 150 is a guesstimate, too. I used to consider 150 my max without a tee, so would just hit 3 wood at 150+, but no longer. Depending on the elevation and wind conditions I can pop my 5 hybrid nearly that far, and my 6 iron not much less.

    My whole club plan has gone out the window and now I’m making this up as I go along. I clearly need to spend some time calibrating at least some of my clubs, but range time is hard to come by. I already have my work schedule as tight as I can get it to make room for the two leagues I play on, and I live far from any place with a range (I work close to one, but there’s that whole work schedule thing again). I’ll figure something out. In the meantime I just experiment as I play, “Hmm, let’s see what happens if I use THIS club fot the shot…” Doesn’t help my score any, I know. :-p

  25. Duke Nukem says:

    I took the S&T swing to the range and the preliminary results were quite encouraging. Since I hit the ball long already, distance was of no concern. I was shocked to have gained a 1/2 club in length (9 iron from 153 to 160 .. 5 iron from 200 to 210) I had to weaken my grip from very strong to 2 knuckles, and I FEEL like I’m swinging EASIER. The ball flight is a very high draw. I was pleased that the big push I’ve been struggling with never manifested. Blocks were just off the green’s surface instead of 20 or more yards right. I hope that I can continually make progress with it, I’m impressed with my initial foray.

  26. Raoul says:

    It seems that there is a thing missing in the discussion:
    -non of us on this forum are going to earn our money by playing golf, so the aim is to get better, more consistent etc.. why do you care is the S&T is not played by the pros, even if you try to copy a pro you will never have the same result as him. And your swing will not look like his as well. I agree with Paladin, “let it happend” if you wan’t to progress start to read “the inner game of tennis” (yes of tennis not golf)because technique is not everything!

  27. Double Eagle says:

    Raoul,

    I think what the pros are doing is a good indicator of what we might want to think about doing, exactly because they make their livings on the game. If they won’t touch a certain swing or use a certain club, we should at least wonder why, because no one needs more consistency than they do, and they’ll also use any swing that will get them there.

    At the same time, that doesn’t mean that a certain swing or technique or club doesn’t have merit, just because pros don’t use it. But we owe it to ourselves to at least pay attention and ask the questions. I guarantee that if there were 50 top pros, including Tiger Woods, playing the Stack and Tilt we’d all be pointing out that fact, so I think we should be careful to point out the opposite situation, as well.

    Especially when pros try and then abandon the swing. If I was using the Stack and Tilt, I’d really, really want to know why. I might continue to use the swing, but I’d want to know.

  28. Mike says:

    OK, I’m coming late to this discussion, but I bet some people are still checking in.

    I don’t know about the ’tilt’ part – I really don’t think that matters to most of us. And as for the ‘stack’, I find that it’s best to stack over your body’s center. I play the driver just off my left heel, but keep my center of gravity smack dab in the middle. After all, you are rotating around your spine. I also don’t reverse pivot, or straighten out the right leg.

    Tell me if I’m wrong, but I seem to remember them recommending a flatter backswing, more ‘arms’ than full shoulder turn. I think that is very unsound. In fact, like many others here have said, the kiss of death is to get lazy and not rotate the shoulders sufficiently on the back swing. Under rotation produces a 25 yard pull-hook with me.

  29. Spinny says:

    Quick note: had a lesson today with a pro who, as it turns out, teaches S&T. After all this time I still have the annoying habit of leaving my weight behind the ball and hitting fat, early promising results notwithstanding. After one hour my concept of what S&T is has been revolutionized, and the results after hitting just a couple of balls were amazing. The shoulder tilt as part of the turn in the back swing turns out to be critical, as is keeping the arms locked in the proper angles all throughout. If those relationships are maintained, it turns out solid ball striking is all but inevitable. My PW went from around 70-80 yards to bouncing high off the back wall (91 yards away) of the practice dome where I took the lesson, and I was hitting with a nice little draw on the ball. This within the first half-dozen shots after receiving instruction. This has real potential for my game.

  30. Double Eagle says:

    That’s a pretty significant increase in distance, Spinny. You’ll knock out the issue with the lingering weight transfer before you know it. A few very focused practice sessions will erase that problem.

  31. raul moran says:

    Mike Bennet and Andy Plummer were here in the D.C. Area in January for the AT@T Invitational. I had a chance to meet them both when they gave a free clinic in Fredericksburg, Va. For a few minutes Andy showed some “how to’s”. I asked him for a certified SnT pro in the area, he could not provide me with a name. Does anybody there know anyone in the area who can teach?

    a

  32. Spinny says:

    Raul,

    The largest on-line golfing community I know of is at golfwrx.com. With over ninety thousand members, and a pretty good S&T contingent, I bet if you posted your question there you’d have a good chance to attract some response.

  33. dday39 says:

    You really need to purchase the DVD’s. There just isn’t enough accurate information online to see and explain all of the positions.

    Duke-if you are hitting high draws, you are coming in too steep. Basic S&T should produce a low, penetrating, straight shot with minimal draw.

    There is a Stack & Tilt certified academy in Erie, PA.

  34. David Wedzik says:

    Just found the blog and was reading some of these comments.

    Some of the stuff from early (from TP Golf) on I have quoted here including: “I honestly see Stack and Tilt being known as a fad. Any innovation in swing theory or equipment needs to be adopted and supported by those who make their livelihood playing golf.”……..and “I remember Natural Golf about 10 years ago. I know of players that adopted that method and swore by its teaching. ”

    This is exactly the type of comment that should NEVER be posted anywhere because it has NO FOUNDATION WHATSOEVER. Before considering a post like this you would think some fact gathering would be in order. First, as a disclaimer, I will say that I have been lucky enough to be friends with Mike and Andy for a very long time and I teach the Stack and Tilt principles because I have ALWAYS believed in them. With that said I can tell you that Mike and Andy are teaching anywhere from 15-20 players on the PGA Tour at any given time…..so as to “any innovation needs to be adopted by those who make their livelihood playing golf”…I’d say that is one is MORE THAN COVERED. And comparing SnT to Natural Golf…are you kidding? The poster was correct that – virtually nobody making a living playing the game did well in any way with Natural Golf – and there is no way you can find greats of the game displaying those principles.

    Stack and Tilt on the other hand is BASED in what the great players of all time display in their motions and contrasts what the poorest players do. That is why it works…the poorest and best players have been classified to find out what the major differences are. The model is geometrically/mechanically sound….it helps the poorest players improve the fastest…and Mike and Andy teach more players on tour than anyone I know of. Seems like a bit more than a fad to me. If you took the time to read this thanks in advance.

    Dave

  35. Gene R. says:

    Dave,

    I appreciate your comment and am just now beginning to take lessons on S & T. Do you know of any Certified Teachers in the South Florida area? Specifically Pam Beach County. Thanks for any help.

    Gene

  36. Dave Y says:

    Just found this forum. Some interesting posts. I know (based on the post dates) that I am joining the discussion on S&T after most of it has ended, but I thought I would add a couple comments in case anyone still follows it. I had early success with the technique, then kind of lost it after a couple months. Some frustration on the course undermined my confidence, which is key to the success of any swing method. Just yesterday I went out to the range and re-focused on the basics. In short, it’s working again! I think that what happened is that once I felt I had the swing grooved in I began to relax and lapsed back into a hybrid that combined elements of my previous technique with the S&T with disastrous results. My advice—Stick with it whether the pros are using it or not. It works!

  37. mk says:

    I have used the S&T for 8 months. It is much easier to get consistent contact and compression on irons. It is not a “cure all” but it does work and improvement is quick. I found the book to be a big help in understanding the basics that were not apparent on the original videos. Trajectory is more boring with little curve. As an aside four holes in a row yesterday, something I had not done before. All shots were within 8 feet on approach. I have lowered my average strokes by 5 per round and enjoy using the method. It works!

    The swing comes and goes as every other method I’ve used but is much easier to correct.

  38. clicker says:

    Just found this site when doing some additional study on golf swings. Only thng I will add to the conversation is I study the game and the data behind the swing outcomes. I dont care what type of golf people play but I do know the data supports the Stack And Tilt golf swing overwhelming. The putting stoke is a little closer. I dont know the details of the swing not my expertise so cant comment on those issues.

  39. James says:

    I regard myself as an average player, I changed to stack and tilt (my own ‘self taught’ version) and without much practice carded a 67 this July. I play off 6 currently and had a hot day with the putter but can’t deny that the improved ball striking has made a huge difference hitting shots into greens. It’s basically kept me playing the game which I was pretty close to packing in for good just a few months earlier.

    Happy days!

  40. jaygem says:

    I adopted the stack and tilt mid year this year. Shawn Baker a PGA pro on Long Island and formerly of Brattleboro Vt. introduced it to us at the Brattleboro Country Club. The results have been spectacular for me. At 6’1″ and a former football player flexibility has always been a problem for me and that translated into a continual problem with swaying. In an effort to control it I restricted my natural instincts on length of swing and sacrificed distance for accuracy.

    With Stack and tilt I immediately made better contact. The most significant difference was in the distance I hit irons. My typical 5 iron before was 160 yds and on down for the 6,7,8 and 9.

    Since stack and tilt I can easily hit 180-190 yd 5 irons and have bombed several over 200 yds with a harder more concentrated effort.

    I have hit 48degree wedges 140 yds. These distance enhancements have, as you might guess been a game changer for me. Something which I am still adjusting too.

    I attribute the distance to the stack and tilt which I believe promotes a delayed release and minimizes the swinging from the top I used to so commonly do. Now when I swing from the top I hit a slight fade and not the big bananas I used to hit. The sniped pull hook has all but disappeared.

    Last…my golfing friends and I are all in the 6 to 12 handicap range and guess what? They are all so freaked by the new life in my 59 year old body that they are have all adopted the s&t in one form or another.

    Key to successful stack and tilt swing for me is making sure that my right leg straightens completely. It works if I don’t get it completely straight but when I do get it totally straight …booom!

  41. There are quite a few PGA Tour guys using Stack and Tilt that we’ve never heard of because they’re not usually in contention, but I know Aaron Baddely and Mike Weir are no longer Stack and Tilt advocates and have since went back to their old coaches.

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